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Hey folks! Welcome back to the NEGOTIATEx podcast. Today, we are honored to have Julia Ewert with us, the first-ever global guest on our show. She is often referred to as “The Negotiator” by many in her circles. A prominent negotiation and sales expert, Julia has worked with some of the biggest companies from around the globe, helping them develop effective and practical sales and business strategies to achieve their goals.
Julia’s journey into the world of negotiation began seven years ago when she left her corporate job to pursue her passive interest in negotiations. During that time, she picked up and read an entire library’s worth of negotiation books and took the opportunity to reach out to and get acquainted with many famous authors and scholars on the subject. This further piqued her interest in the field and as a result, her passive interest transformed into an obsession.
Many people have this preconceived notion that negotiation is a natural skill; you either have it or don’t. Julia breaks this myth and confirms that while innate characteristics like being likable and friendly play a crucial part in negotiating, negotiation is a learned skill for the most part. However, she emphasizes that one must have the willingness to learn negotiation and that it would require epic amounts of practice for one to hone this skill.
She then refers to one of her favorite quotes, “If you wing it, you won’t win it” and highlights that negotiation is a purposeful and deliberate discipline.
Julia talks about her favorite books. For beginners, she recommends Never Split the Difference by Chris Voss and mentions that it is a great place to learn the skills required for negotiation.
She also loves Real World Negotiations by Josh Weiss. In fact, the thing that attracts her the most about this particular book is that it is palatable. The book features several case studies that provide us with the techniques that negotiators have tried and have shown real results in the field.
Other than that, she recommends reading George Kohlrieser’s Hostage At The Table and claims that it is one of the most insightful negotiation books that she has ever read. The book provides a reader with a hard look at themselves and the things they hold themselves hostage to.
Julia clarifies that sales and negotiation are two different things. While sales is more transactional, negotiating is more strategic and tactical. In other words, sales is when we trade something (goods or services) for currency and negotiation is the process of reaching an agreement on the things we are selling by having conversations.
When asked about how to help people from another industry negotiate, Julia highlights that industry is not important since at the end of the day, we negotiate with people and not the industry. There are nuances in every industry, but as long as we have the right people skills, we should be able to ace any negotiation regardless of the industry.
Julia also mentions that a professional negotiator should never be discouraged by a “No”. They should instead have the resilience to get rejected and take it as an opportunity to learn and grow. After all, people are rejecting your offer and not you.
In order to become a skillful and purposeful negotiator, one needs to build resilience by having difficult conversations and being in difficult situations with people whenever there is an opportunity. This provides them with the right amount of practice as a negotiator and helps them serve their clients better. Julia shares a couple of instances where she didn’t shy away from having difficult conversations with people, which helped her in her journey to becoming a negotiator.
Julia, Aram and Nolan discuss a lot more on this episode of the NEGOTIATEx Podcast. Write to us at firstname.lastname@example.org and let us know your thoughts on this very insightful episode.
Thank you for listening.
Nolan Martin : Hello, and welcome to the NEGOTIATEx podcast. I am your co-host and co-founder Nolan Martin. And with me bright and early today is Aram Donigian. So, if you see a very happy face on the video on YouTube, it is because I got Aram up here at six-thirty to talk to our wonderful guest, who's actually in Australia today. So Aram, bright and early, how are you doing today, sir?
Aram Donigian : Yeah, you're not referring to me as bright and early. I think you're referring to the day as bright and early. I don't know how you talked into this other than, other than this is our first global guest and what an honor to have Julia Ewert with us. Julia is known as “The Negotiator” by, by many in, in her circles and beyond. So we are excited to have Julia with us today.
She's also a renowned sales and negotiation expert who works with clients around the world, equipping them with highly effective and very practical business skills and to achieve sustainably better outcomes. She applies some of the world's best practices, enabling multi-million dollar companies across industries to excel in their sales and negotiations. So, all the way from Perth, Australia, Julia, thank you for being with us today.
Julia Ewert : Hey, thanks Aram and thanks Nolan. I always love talking to people in the US and I'll tell you why. It's because we are 12 hours in front, so we are the future and I can tell you you're all gonna like it, you're all gonna like it. Your future is bright, it's amazing. You're all gonna get through. So to be at peace that it’s all gonna be alright.
NM : Well, thanks Julia, for joining us today, really appreciate it to kind of kick these things off. We like to generally ask, how did you get started negotiations? What key developments did you have in your journey to becoming a negotiator?
JE : So I left my nice, cushy, corporate job with my nice fat salary about seven years ago. And I thought I've got a good idea. Let's throw that in and start a business with nothing. Um, luckily plot twist. It actually worked out so that's great, but I, um, my background is I'm a sales strategist, so I've worked with some of the biggest companies in the world in sales and sales, leadership roles, leading large sales teams. But really Nolan and Aram, I had a, I had a passive interest in negotiating to begin with. And when I say passive, I read a book and then I thought that's a great book. I read another book. So I started to read a lot of negotiation books and as lots of people in my circles know that I am very resourceful and I'm very opportunistic.
JE : So, I reached out pretty much to every author of every negotiation book that I read. And I said, Hey, do you wanna chat? 90% of them go, “yeah, that'd be fun”. And so, I ended up having zoom calls with authors of some of the most famous negotiators in the world who have written brilliant books become friends with a lot of them. Then they introduced me to other negotiators and said, oh, Julia, you should meet. So, and so let me introduce you. So as a result, I've I've got myself a, a, a club or I'm in everyone else's club, maybe and I'll continue to learn from these people. Some of them are my great friends now. And the passive interest has turned into what I would say at least three or four times a week. I am a junkie for this stuff. So yes, I've turned into a negotiation junkie.
NM : Absolutely. And kind of just wanted to touch on that a little bit. Cuz a lot of times you kind of hear from a client who really isn't well versed in negotiations. Sometimes in even leadership they're like, oh, you either have it or you don't. So, obviously you started with books, you're obviously a teacher of negotiations now. So, what's some kind of key insight that you can give to someone who's just getting started that doesn't know if they can learn this stuff by books or by other professionals.
JE : Well, I guess the two things that we need to learn, anything new, Nolan, is we need the skills, but we also need above else of willingness. You know, you can't teach anyone something that they have no interest in learning. So, but negotiating, you know, you guys are also masters of the the craft that this is a learned skill. Some people, um, you know, are referred to as natural negotiators. And what I see when I, when I see people refer to people that that negotiate is the skills that they are referring to is that they're they connect well, they're likable and friendly. And yes, that can be an innate characteristic, right? But for the most part, negotiating is a learnd skill, no different to, and I, you know, I use lots of analogies when I, when I teach and I use a tennis analogy. If you wanted to play Wimbledon and win Wimbledon, turning up to Wimbledon with a hockey stick and flippers and Tutu would not only make you look ridiculous, but it's a terrible strategy.
Uh, but you'll lose, right? Like you can't expect to turn up at Wimbledon and, and play Serena Williams and win if you've got a hockey stick and a pair of goggles on, right? So, you need the right equipment. Not only do you need the right equipment, but you need the right skills. So, you need good footwork, ability to serve, good hand grip, full hand, back hand, every element; much is the same in negotiating. There are so many individual skills required for someone to be great at negotiating and much like playing tennis and winning Wimbledon. It takes epic amounts of practice.
AD : I, I used to use the analogy, Julia, coming up through the military, which was, you know, when we learned to fire a weapon, we learned to go from soup to nuts. And I know you've got family members who have served in the military too. And uh, probably part of the reason you agreed to join with us, but you don't just go out and start firing your weapon in conflict right away. You would start with just understanding how to do diamond washer, drills, trick, control your breathing, get your site picture. And then you zero your weapon. And then you, you qualify on your weapon and then you, right? It's all very incremental. And sometimes at least in the military, we didn't treat negotiation that way. We just assumed everybody could go do it equally. And it wasn't until we started looking at it kind of the way you're describing as these skills that we really need to focus on that we started to see some headway and change.
JE : Yeah, this is a, this is a deliberate and purposeful discipline. I have a phrase that I used that I used often. If, if you wing it, you won't win it, making it up as you go is a terrible strategy. And if you are planning to win a negotiation and you are just making it up as you go, this is the same as going, oh yeah! I know how to use a tennis Drager and hit a ball. I'll love a crack at Wimbledon.
NM : Love it. That's funny. That's funny you say that, cuz our tagline is that we help people elevate their influence through purposeful negotiations. Cuz Aram and I always talk like everyone's in a negotiation constantly whether you know it or not. And so we're just trying to help you be purposeful in that negotiation. So, yeah, that’s beautiful.
AD : Hey Julia, before we move on, can you off the top, like are there three books? I was just, for our, our listeners. Are there, are there, you know, what, what are the, what are your top books that someone should go out to read?
JE : Well, there are so many, I've got a whole shelf full of them..ummm.
JE : All right. I, yeah, I'll give a shout out. Probably the one that really got my interest was, um, you know, Chris Voss's Never Split the Difference, like classic, bright, great one for beginners. If you've never read anything on the topic, this is a brilliant place to start. I love Josh Weiss's Real World Negotiations. What do I like about that one? Where is it? It's somewhere. I have, I have four shelves of negotiation books.
JE : But what I like about that one is it is really, it's a thick one, but it's palatable. So, it gives case studies. Here's a scenario, here are the techniques that they tried, here's what worked. So, it's really well-written. One that, completely overhauled and is probably the most insightful negotiation book that I've read is George Kohlrieser’s Hostage At The Table. If you've not read this book, this serves you up a good hard look at yourself and essentially what you're holding yourself hostage to. Because it's the premise that, you know, I've kind of dumbed down to clean up your own backyard before you start, you know, asking someone else to clean up theirs. So, that book is a good, hard look at yourself and looking at what you're holding yourself hostage to before you can actually start to negotiate with others. It was completely unexpected. I was expecting much of the same of: these are the techniques, these are, these are how you use them. But it was by far the most insightful thing I've read. And again, I've reached out to George and um, have become friends with him. So, but yeah, also a great book.
AD : And let me ask you, is that a place that you recommend is that, is that where you start, when you start training as kind of taking yourself on first cleaning up your own backyard?
JE : Not so much, Aram. No, I, yeah. Short answer would be no.
AD : Okay. Let me ask you a different question then. What's the relationship between the sales process and negotiation? My, my understanding, you started off in sales, even you used to sell knives. Uh, that was, that goes back a long way. So, where, you know, where's the overlap between sales and negotiation and when, and then where, where do those two things kind of diverge, or do they?
JE : Yeah, so, so sales is more, um, transactional, negotiating is more tactical and strategic. So, we're looking at sales as more of a transactional outcome, trading something. And, you know, by definition sales is simply, um, an exchange of goods or services for, for currency and negotiating definition is a discussion named at reaching agreement. So, the premise of negotiating is really about the details. How do we reach agreement on the thing that we might be selling?
AD : Are there skills that serve both well or, or do you think of them as very, because you do training in kind of both or, or do you really treat both as kind of distinguishable skill sets? Yeah.
JE : I, I view them very much a crossover, but interestingly, because I've worked in sales for such a long time, I have seen that even, you know, great negotiators aren't able to sell. And I, you know, I'll give an example of just how these skills are underappreciated by, by modern, modern business, Aram and Nolan. So, a few years ago, before I landed on what I was doing now, I, um, I was only negotiating. I started off and thinking, oh, he's a great idea. I'm gonna do negotiation. No one in Australia is really doing this or nailing this space. I'm gonna, I will nail this space. And so people in Australia would say to me, wow, negotiation, that's so interesting, but where would I use that?
JE : And so after hearing that 500 times, I thought this is a terrible business model. So so we don't have the population. And also, you know, all jokes aside, we don't have the severity of negotiators required in countries like America. So, it's very misunderstood in Australia because my brain goes and people are saying, Ooh, this sounds interesting, but where would I use this? My brain goes, well, only every day, a thousand times.
JE : But it was, there's such a disconnect because obviously, and you, you know, you've heard all this before from other people you've interviewed. But, you know, Hollywood does negotiating no favors, people assume negotiating early matters, and we're talking about money or there's leverage. It literally, you know, you can call whatever you like. You can call these communication skills. All we're trying to do is persuade an influence, dress it up, however you like, but it's the same thing. So, I worked that after hearing that message, you know, 500 times when people say, where would I use this and realizing, Hmm, no, one's really booking me for my expertise here. So, what I did decide to do is I came up with a process that's based on world's best practice in sales process and the FBI style negotiation skills, in a repeatable system. And I get hired, I'm pretty much a one trick pony and happy to be that way. So, I get hired by businesses to implement a sales and negotiation process that helps them convert more contracts, increase their margins and win more negotiations. And when I started talking about that, people would say, oh, that sounds interesting. I think we need that. So, I thought, good move! So, yes, tip for new players: don't try and market something that people aren't gonna buy. This is a terrible strategy. So…
AD : So often about framing, right?
JE : Yes, exactly how we frame it!
AD : That’s great.
NM : Awesome. Well, thanks for sharing, Julia. My next kind of question here is how do you train these businesses that you talk about in negotiations? Like what's the actual process that you take them through?
JE : Yeah, well, interesting. Um, when I'm talking to people like yourselves who are, um, practitioners in this space, It won't surprise you, but I do want, once I get engaged by a client, I do share them within my first session. And I definitely wait until this time in the relationship I say, just so you know, there's no magic.
AD : Well, darn!
JE : Yeah! I know. Yeah. I tell them that before they pay me, no, one's paying me, right? They all think it's magic. They're all expecting magic. And so I say very clearly, um, and I say, when you can do this stuff, well, it's almost underwhelming because this, these are humble skills. Skills that sound simple, but they're not easy, but there is no magic, there is no tricks, there is no manipulation, there's nothing cheesy. And if it feels that way, people are doing it wrong.
NM : So yeah, I know that a, a question that we get sometimes is, well, you're not an expert in my industry. How would you be able to help me essentially either with the sales process or with negotiations? So, in that kind of context, how do you, how would you answer that when, when the business is like you didn't grow up in the gas and oil business, how can you help me possibly?
JE : Yeah. Nolan, um, tell me some more about why that's important to you?
NM : Well, that's a wonderful question. Uh, Julia.
JE : Well, you are/you are not my first rodeo, Nolan.
NM : No, I mean, for, for the, I guess, so role playing here. So, it would be important for me to, for you to be in my industry so that, you know, what I need to say or do to be successful. Um, obviously since you weren't in the oil and gas industry, then, then how are you gonna actually be able to help me?
AD : Well, let me, I'll go a little further, right? That there must, there must be a specific answer. And I'm looking for the you know, maybe whether it's a magic trick or tip. And I just want you to give me the, the, the trick I need to, to go put into play maybe versus a broader training of my, my thinking or mindset that needs, needs to adapt.
JE : So, tell me Nolan, with your oil and gas business, what sort of things are you negotiating?
NM : Well, trying to negotiate with different vendors? You know, I've got truckers that will take our crates, um, or our barrels, and they'll take 'em to the processing plant. For me, that's, that's important for me, for, for them, for me to be able to basically get the best deal, because, you know, as the prices in oil fluctuate. I can't run my business because of fluctuating prices. So, I need to get basically the cheapest services possible from all of my vendors.
JE : Sure. Um, and do you mind if I ask, you know, if you, if you don't mind troubleshooting this, cause I know you have a, you know, a problem that needs solving here. Could you ask me could you let me know Nolan, um, aside from some concerns around my experience in oil and gas negotiations, what other concerns would you have about engaging my services?
NM : Really it's just, you know, I want to capitalize on someone who has experience, um, with oil and gas directly. Basically I need you to help me be the next Exxon. So, I'm dependent upon finding that expert that not only has tons of experience in my industry, but also brings the skills that you talk about. So,
JE : Yeah. Okay. So aside from my experience in, in oil and gas, no other concerns, is that what I'm hearing?
NM : I mean, yeah. I think, I think you're great on everything else. I just wish you also had 30 years of experience in oil and gas.
JE : Yeah. Yeah. That's okay. So, um, the great news is, and this is why I asked you before about what is it that you're negotiating. And I'm glad you said that you are negotiating with essentially humans, because what I teach, I have 25 years experience of negotiating with humans and the principles and techniques that I will teach you will far be better than anyone else that will teach you because they will leverage heavily on the industry. And people don't negotiate with the industry, they negotiate with people.
NM : Ah, that was beautiful. That was beautiful. Where can I sign up? I'm ready to go.
JE : That's true, right? These stuff, hey, these are people skills
NM : That's and that's what we try and express to our clients is you're it, it is just, people do business with people at the end of the day. Like there may be some nuances within your industry, but that is stuff that you should be able to apply given the framework to deal with people. So, yeah, that was beautiful. Beautifully said, great job.
JE : I got to silent a lot of mouths?
NM : Yup, dropped the mic!
AD : So, so let, let's dig a little deeper, Julia, you know, you talked about what you call these humble skills. You talked about these skills to engage with humans. So what, what do you see to be the fundamentals of modern day negotiation skills? What, what, what does that skillset consist of? Obviously you just demonstrated some wonderful, you know, inquiry and listening. Uh, and so being able to ask good questions, what else would you add to kinda the list of, hey, these are the skills you need to be able to succeed?
JE : Okay. So, um, Aram I’m gonna answer that two different ways. I'll cover what I believe is the fundamental skills. The necessary things would be, you know, the tennis equivalent would be the forehand, the backhand, the serve, and the volleys, right? So, what do you need to play the game? And then I, I will, um, I'll cover, what do you need to be a ninja at this game? The fundamental skills to play would be open questions, listening with genuine curiosity. Ego at the door, so no ego, hard. Again, sounds simple, not easy. Um, I think if someone just had those they're off to a good start.
AD : Okay, that's good.
JE : Then the advanced side is, you know, to recognize disagreement, right? So, when Nolan, I know this is, you know, just, you know, all fun practice or just a practice session there. But when Nolan says, oh, you know, you, haven't got oil and gas experience, my brain goes like, there's a disagreement. Now what we wanna do when we get into a disagreement. Cause we wanna go, no, no, no Nolan Nolan. I'm actually really great because, or no, no Nolan that actually doesn't matter, let me tell you why. So, this is what I call the show up and throw up.
JE : Is where I just launch into my solution all over you. Or I pitch my greatness all over you. This is the show up and throw up. No one wants to be vomited over, no matter how great you are, do not throw up all over, people, do not do it! So, you know, I've trained myself and I don't always get it right, I still get it wrong sometimes. But I catch myself and go, oh, that tanked or, oh, I should have, you know, but I'm recognizing it, right? So, you know, to this example with Nolan now recognize, well, it's a disagreement. So, when we're talking about wiring, um, we've gotta wire our ourselves to understand that where there's disagreement. So, when I ask that, an example for Nolan, where I said, Hey, just let's troubleshoot. If you don't mind, cuz you know, you've still got a problem that needs solving, which is also true.
JE : So whether Nolan works with me or not, he has a problem that remains unsolved. That's why he was talking to me, right? So, I would suggest that, um, my brain goes into right, he's got some concerns here. There's a disagreement or an objection. So, I would ask, Hey, look, let's troubleshoot, aside from your concerns about my oil and gas experience, what other reservations might you have about moving the conversation forward with me? And he'll either say one or two things, he'll say he'll paraphrase what he said or he'll say something completely different. You're really expensive. You're not in my region or something else. So, then we get all the concerns out, which is I'll try and let him empty his tank. And then we can move to solutions.
AD : What I heard you saying with the ninja piece, then what really makes the difference is the way the ninja negotiator is able to recognize the disagreement and uses whether it's an objection or a challenge, uses that, an understanding of that maybe is open to learn from those things. Is that right? And, on your website you talked about, there was this, um, quote about building immunity to no, is, is this the concept right where I'm, I'm not discouraged by a no or an objection. I'm learning from that. Is that, am I in the right or I, or am I off track there?
JE : No, no. Aram, I think you're spot on there, and you know, there's, there's a cracking Ted talk by Jia Jiang, it's called 100 days of rejection. If you've not watched it, do yourselves a favor, it's really great. And a, a part of that is, is about building your resilience to know and people aren't rejecting you, they're rejecting your offer.
AD : Okay.
JE : So I much like the guy in that Ted talk, I actively find opportunities to build my resilience to know or to build my resilience to difficult conversations. So prior to, you know, a couple of examples. So, I have two kids, I have a six year old, a seven year old. And at one of them was playing footy on the weekends. There was a dad who turned up with a really offensive t-shirt and you know, six year olds had just seven years starting to read, right? And this shirt was really offensive, had words that were easy for kids to sound out and really offensive. And I said to my husband, man, check out, so and so's dad's shirt, that's line, isn't it? And then a few other parents were like, like that's terrible. Like he should not be wearing that around these kids. So, I say to my husband, I'm gonna go and say something and my husband's dying. He's like, no, no, no, don't.
JE : Listen, Did you not know me? I'm not gonna go and like scream at this guy. Like, this is an opportunity. Like I know the dad, I know him, right? So, um, but yeah, my husband's dying. He's like, don't, don't, don't don't make a scene. I'm like, it's funny again. And I go, this is people's resistance to difficult conversation. I said to my husband, no, one's gonna die here. But I kind of go, here's an opportunity for me to have a difficult conversation where no one will die and I can practice. Like, what's the, what's the worst that happens to me. <laugh> nothing like, I can't even think of what the worst thing would be. So, I went over to him and I respectfully said, Hey, how's it going? Great day for sport. You know, kids are having a blast, that shirt man. And he goes, he looks down at it and he laughs. It's funny, isn't it? And I said, what his name was.
JE : He said, you know what I said, it's pretty offensive. I said, dude, the kids can read and I just let it simmer. And he stopped laughing now and he put, and he said, oh, he said, you know what he said? Yeah, you're right. He said, oh and he put his hoodie on. So, no one died. I got the chance to, to build, have some difficult conversation. My husband survived as well. I will say he did not die of mortification. So he was fine. But this is about building our resilience to, to these situations. Aram and Nolan, it’s about being, you know, in that Ted talk, he talks Geia Jane talks about stay engaged, ask why, stay present because it's the three, the three stress responses, flight Fri fight, flight, fight, flight or freeze. So, my right, my stress response is freeze. So, fight for me is going, no, no, you idiot.
JE : And like, so I would never do that, right? I wouldn't run, but I’d freeze. Hmm, and for me that looks like stopping in my tracks. And I look like I wanna talk, but I, nothing comes out. So that is my stress response. And my brain has all the words, my mouth just can't get it out. So, I go, the more I can practice being in these situations, the better I am for myself, the better I can serve people around me, the better I can serve my clients, but this stuff can be learned as well. You know, you talked, we talked before about wiring for recognizing disagreement. So as I said, I've got a six year old and a seven year old that I shared this story on LinkedIn just the other day. My, my six year old, sorry, my seven year old doing his hair in the morning.
JE : He's got hair like me, it's just outta control. And so, um, so I'm doing his hair and he says, um, mom, when dad takes us to school this morning, can he just drop us off? Instead of, instead of coming in, I said, well, ask him. He said, well, he, he wants to come in and I just want him to drop me off so I can go in and play with my friends before school. And so I said, okay, let's um, and this is before school. I said, well, let let's practice. I'm I'm dad try to say something to me. And so he says, um, he says, dad, um, dad, when we get and they call it here, kiss and drive, you can drive up, kiss your kid and drive off. Or once they, you know, you stop the car, you don't just throw him out. They call, kiss me.
JE : So, he said, um, dad, when we go to school this morning, can we do kiss and drive rather than you come in? And I put my best dad voice on and I say, no, Fraser, no, I want to take you into school because then I can wait with you until the bell rings. And he says, no, but dad, I wanna do kiss and drive. And I said, Fraser, remember, stop, slow down. What's the technique we've talked about? Now he's seven, right? He's properly thinking. And I said to him, did I just agree with you or disagree with you? And he's, you know, he's only little. He said disagree. I said, right. So what do we say when someone disagrees? And he said, I am thinking, he says, dad, could you please tell why I can't do kiss and drive? And I was like parenting win!
AD : That's beautiful.
JE : Right? So, and this is the thing. This stuff takes concentration. Like there aren't many grownups that can do that.
AD : Right.
JE : Cause a wide for defense. And you know what? My two kids that think English as a second language, they speak whinging and complaining as a first language.
JE : So, any time I can try and get them away from that into having proper conversations, it's very satisfying and way more collaborative. Cuz now we talk about why I wanna do kiss and drive because of this. But now we've got some information to work with rather than I wanna do kiss and drive 😀 yeah.
AD : Beautiful examples. Thank you, Julia.
NM : I was waiting for Aram to throw something in there about his six children, but I guess we're gonna pass on this. Aram, you have
JE : You have six children?
AD : We have six kids. So I just, I resonate. I certainly, how old are your kids? Appreciate? I don't know. I don't know if I'm as good a parent though. Julia, as you are to, to be able to have, I don't know if they're coached to, to that level yet.
JE : But like, how old are your kids?
AD : Range from 14 down to 4.
JD : Oh, so you're like a professional parent. I'm still like the, <laugh> just like the rookie parent trying to work out, what the hell I'm doing?
AD : Is there such a thing as a professional parent? I think we're all trying to wing in a little bit. Yeah.uh, yeah, but well, very intentional there. What I appreciated about both your stories is there's the rather than getting defensive and feeling like I just have to tell you, let me just tell you why you need to take that shirt off right now. Let me just tell you why we need to do kiss and drop, there's the power of the question and the curiosity and the openness to creating an aha moment. Certainly in the shirt thing, the aha moment for, for that other parent, you know, just, I think it's, it's beautiful and I, those are things you can bring into the negotiation table too.
NM : Hey everyone, Nolan here, I have to end the conversation right here. So sorry, but join us next week. As we continue our conversation with Julia, if you haven't already please rate, review and subscribe to the NegotiateX podcast so we can get this podcast in front of other leaders in our communities.
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