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Key Takeaways

  • It’s crucial to recognize and mitigate the impacts of gender biases in negotiation settings to enhance fairness and outcomes for women.
  • Early education about gender roles and societal expectations is vital, as these factors significantly influence negotiation skills from a young age.
  • Building confidence in negotiating in male-dominated fields involves presenting a mix of empirical research, real-life stories, and successes that affirm women's effectiveness in these settings.
  • Prioritizing mental and emotional preparation, known as “mindset inoculation,” is essential before tactical negotiation planning to ensure resilience and effectiveness.
  • Mentorship and peer networks are invaluable for negotiation success, offering critical information and emotional support.
  • Negotiation training for women needs to be approachable and specifically address the unique challenges posed by gender biases, making the process inclusive and empowering.
  • Advocacy for gender equity in negotiation involves nurturing diverse support networks and ensuring inclusive practices within organizations.

Executive Summary:

Hey everyone! Welcome back to the NEGOTIATEx podcast. We are continuing our conversation with Joan Moon, a renowned negotiation coach, trainer, and consultant. In Part A, Joan discussed her professional journey, which focuses on training women to navigate gender bias in negotiations. 

She also highlighted the demand for negotiation training among women and the prevalence of gendered negotiation issues. Additionally, Joan explained the importance of understanding bias and its impact on negotiations and suggested strategies such as the “win-win” framing technique. 

If you haven’t checked out Part A, we strongly recommend that you do that first before listening to this one. With that said, let’s get started.

Joan’s Insight On Enhancing Negotiation Skills Through Early Education And Awareness

Aram and Joan discuss how societal norms affect women’s negotiation skills. 

Joan highlights that gendered expectations are instilled from a young age, using examples like gender-specific children’s clothing and how girls receive feedback. She shares personal experiences to illustrate how these societal norms persist into adulthood, especially in specific cultural contexts like her Korean-American background.

Joan stresses the importance of being aware of and challenging these norms from a young age. She suggests that parents and educators should monitor and adjust the feedback given to children, ensuring it isn’t solely based on gendered behavior. She also emphasizes the need to educate women and men about gender issues, recommending resources like the podcast “Man Enough,” which explores gender from a male perspective.

Furthermore, Joan advises teaching girls to trust their inner judgment early on, which can help them navigate challenges and reduce the impact of societal pressures as they grow older. It involves encouraging girls to express and trust their own perceptions rather than questioning their confidence.

Strategies To Build Confidence And Overcome Barriers In Male-Dominated Fields

Moving on, Nolan asks Joan for guidance on helping women overcome self-imposed limitations and build the confidence to negotiate effectively, particularly in male-dominated fields.

Joan responds by discussing strategies she uses in coaching to help women overcome negotiation hesitancy, particularly in male-dominated fields. She outlines three types of data she provides to her clients:

#1 Gender Research 

Joan uses research data to help her clients understand the broader context of their experiences, such as why women may receive worse outcomes in ambiguous negotiation situations or why they are challenged more often. This research validates their experiences and helps them see that their struggles are part of a larger systemic issue.

#2 Anecdotal Data 

Additionally, Joan shares stories from other women, including her own experiences and those of her clients, to help the women she coaches feel less isolated. These anecdotes demonstrate that other women face similar challenges, which can help alleviate self-doubt and reinforce that they are not alone in their experiences.

#3 Personal Success Data 

Joan also reflects back the successes her clients have achieved in negotiations, using their own stories. For example, she recounts the story of a client named Ellen, who, despite feeling burnt out and unsuccessful, had used effective negotiation strategies to achieve her desired outcome. Joan highlights these successes to show her clients that they have been effective and can continue to build on those achievements.

Overall, Joan’s approach focuses on building confidence by providing a mix of empirical data, shared experiences, and personal victories. This fosters a positive growth mindset and empowers women to navigate and succeed in challenging negotiation scenarios.

Joan’s Approach To Strengthening Negotiation Success Through Mindset Inoculation

Subsequently, Joan explains the importance of addressing mindset before diving into negotiation strategies. She highlights that early in her coaching career, she focused directly on strategic planning—outlining stakeholders, framing strategies, timing, and sequence—which initially seemed effective. However, she noticed that this approach didn’t hold up in practice if the client hadn’t first addressed their underlying psychological state.

She shares a specific example where a client’s strategy fell apart during a negotiation because they had not dealt with underlying fears and mindset issues. Joan underscores the significant role of psychological readiness in negotiation outcomes, which is supported by ample research.

Now, she starts her coaching with what she refers to as “inoculation,” focusing on mindset issues to help clients manage their fears. This foundational work ensures that they are psychologically prepared to effectively apply the strategic aspects of negotiation. Joan confirms that this approach leads to a transformation in clients, making the strategy work much more effective and fruitful once the mindset shift has occurred.

How Mentorship And Peer Support Enhance Negotiation Outcomes

Joan also discusses the critical role of mentorship and peer networks in negotiation, particularly focusing on how they provide both crucial information and social support. She gives examples of how these networks can positively influence negotiation outcomes:

#1 Information Sharing 

Joan mentions clients who are part of industry-specific, secret Facebook groups where members share their salary data. This helps everyone in the group have access to accurate and comparative salary information, which is crucial for effective salary negotiations. Joan notes the importance of ensuring that such data includes figures from male counterparts to avoid basing negotiations on potentially skewed lower female salaries.

#2 Celebrity Example 

She cites a high-profile instance where actor Bradley Cooper shared his salary information with co-star Jennifer Lawrence to ensure she could negotiate a fair salary. Thus, it demonstrates the power of information sharing within networks.

#3 Social Support 

Joan emphasizes the emotional and psychological support that networks can provide during high-stakes negotiations. She references Wendy Sherman’s memoir, which details how a group of high-level women in government would regularly meet, offering each other support through challenging times.

#4 Role Of Networks In Practical Support 

Joan also mentions that networks can help in various practical ways, such as bouncing ideas off one another, rehearsing, or simply offering moral support. The network might engage in activities like role-playing interview questions or providing encouragement to boost confidence.

These examples illustrate how networks not only facilitate better negotiation outcomes through information exchange but also provide the necessary support system that helps individuals navigate the stressful aspects of negotiation processes.

Joan’s Approach To Addressing Gender-Specific Challenges For Women In Negotiation Settings 

Next, Nolan asks about the specific features that Joan’s negotiation programs include to cater specifically to the needs of women in negotiation. He is mainly interested in understanding how these programs are tailored to address gender-specific challenges in negotiating settings.

In response, Joan mentions that her negotiation programs, designed specifically for women, are aimed at making the negotiation process more approachable and inclusive by: 

#1 Reducing Intimidation 

Joan recognizes that the concept of negotiation often conjures up masculine or negative images, such as “men in suits” or feelings of “anxiety” and “intimidation.” To counteract this, she focuses on creating a professional brand that is approachable and welcoming, explicitly communicating that negotiation is also a domain where women can excel and feel comfortable.

#2 Tailored Online Course 

Recently, Joan launched an online course specifically designed for women. This course is unique because it integrates gender bias information directly into the teaching of each negotiation concept and strategy. By doing so, she addresses the specific challenges women might face due to gender biases, ensuring that the content is not only relevant but also empowering for female participants.

Overall, Joan’s strategies aim to make negotiation for women less daunting and more accessible, equipping them with tools to overcome gender-specific challenges in negotiation scenarios.

Joan’s Approach To Intersectional Biases Combining Gender, Race, And Culture

Moving on, Joan elaborates on how she navigates the intersectionality of biases in her workshops and private coaching sessions, specifically addressing how gender combines with factors like race and culture:

#1 Adapting Communication Styles (Code-Switching) 

Joan adjusts her language and presentation style based on the audience. For example, in workshops for male-dominated industries like construction, she might simplify discussions around gender and racial biases. 

In contrast, she can use more specific terminology like “cis” or “heteronormativity” without explanation in sessions with social justice organizations where the audience is more familiar with such concepts.

#2 Validating Lived Experiences 

In her private coaching, Joan prioritizes validating the personal experiences of her clients, especially those who have felt marginalized or dismissed in the past. She emphasizes the importance of affirming these experiences to prevent clients from second-guessing themselves, a practice informed by her own experiences of having her perceptions questioned.

#3 Providing Psychological Safety 

Joan stresses the importance of creating a safe space for clients, particularly for women of color who often have fewer opportunities to express themselves openly without judgment. She recognizes the unique and varied experiences of different groups and avoids generalizing their experiences, focusing instead on offering a supportive environment where they can discuss their concerns freely.

Overall, Joan’s coaching and workshops focus on inclusivity, sensitively addressing clients’ challenges at the intersections of gender, race, and culture, tailored to diverse backgrounds and needs.

Joan’s Shift To Measuring Transformative Outcomes In Negotiation Training Success

Nolan asks Joan about methods to measure the effectiveness of programs and is interested in hearing a specific success story from someone who has benefited from the program.

The latter reflects on how she assesses the effectiveness of her negotiation programs, highlighting a shift from quantifiable measures to more transformative outcomes.

Initially, Joan measured the success of her programs by the tangible financial benefits they brought to clients, such as salary increases. She shares a specific example of a client who initially hoped to increase her compensation by $12,000 but ended up gaining an additional $60,000 after participating in Joan’s program.

Over time, Joan shifted her focus from financial metrics to the broader, transformative impact of her coaching. She now values her clients’ deeper, more personal changes, such as a shift in their self-perception and confidence in negotiation. 

Joan describes success as seeing a client evolve into an “everyday negotiator,” a change that positively affects every aspect of their life. This broader impact is seen in clients who, years after their training, use their negotiation skills in various aspects of their lives, such as negotiating rent or navigating personal relationships. 

She strongly believes this transformation is a true measure of success, extending beyond mere financial gains to enhance overall life satisfaction and empowerment.

Joan’s Vision For Gender Equity And The Value Of Diverse Support Networks

As the conversation draws to a close, Joan offers her insights and vision for future contributions to gender equity.

Firstly, Joan offers crucial advice to young women at the start of their careers: cultivating and valuing their support networks beyond romantic relationships. She emphasizes the importance of friendships and professional relationships, which provide crucial support through various life stages. 

Additionally, Joan shares her broader ambitions for the future. Her primary goal is to tackle societal inequities from multiple angles. This might involve training individual women, assisting organizations in creating more inclusive environments or returning to work with marginalized communities. 

Joan, Aram, and Nolan discuss more on this episode of the NEGOTIATEx podcast. Write to us at team@negotiatex.com and share your thoughts on this informational podcast episode. Also, if you enjoyed the episode, we’d be thrilled if you could rate us on Apple Podcasts. Your ratings help us grow and improve.

Thank you for your time!

Transcript

Nolan Martin : Hey everyone, thanks for joining us on the NEGOTIATEx podcast. We are continuing our conversation with Joan Moon, a negotiation coach, trainer, and consultant. If you haven't already checked out part A of the show, be sure to do that first. Let's jump in the conversation with Joan.

Aram Donigian : Socialization is another process. It's a structure. We know that it's a factor that influences women's negotiation behavior. You were just talking to that. I'm a parent of six kids, four girls, and I guess I'm just curious because I'm responsible for so much of the socialization that's occurring. How can educators that spend so much time with our youth through their first 12 years of schooling, contribute to building negotiation skills in women from a young age to counteract maybe some of these early socialization effects?

Breaking Gender Norms: How Early Expectations Shape Our Future [01:31]

Joan Moon : Yeah, I love that question, Aram, because there's so much research out there that shows that gendered expectations start at a really, really young age. I saw something on social media recently about going through a store and looking at the boys section and the girls section and the boys, there's NASA T-shirts, and in the girls section, it's rainbows and tell me I'm cute. And so the feedback that we give to young children, it starts at such an early age.

So to answer this question, I would say one of the first things that you can do as a father or as an influence in any young person's life is to notice how you are providing positive feedback. Is it just for gendered behavior? And I think that this can be magnified more in certain cultures. So I'm Korean-American. I was always given positive feedback when I performed really gendered duties.

So when guests came over, I cut the fruit, I served the tea, and then I silently stood in the background. And the silent part was really important. And I noticed as I reflect as an adult, I continued this behavior. So when I perpetuated this behavior onto others unintentionally, so when my brother was getting married, my uncle was coming to visit right after the wedding and he was the great patriarch of our family.

And so after dinner, I got up and I saw that my new sister-in-law wasn't getting up with me. She's not Korean, so she didn't know these sort of unspoken rules

AD : And you didn't give her the playbook like, Hey, you're coming into the family this is.

JM : Oh, I gave her a major assist. Okay. So I said, Hey, I singled her like, Hey, come with me. And so she comes up to me and I whispered to her, they need to see you doing the dishes. And like clockwork, we started doing the dishes. I like clockwork. My uncle turns to my brother, he nods approvingly, and he says in Korean, she seems like a nice girl.

And the thing is, this is not a culture-specific thing. I do think it's magnified or perhaps a little more explicit in certain cultures, but what are we giving positive feedback for to girls and women? And so being aware of that and monitoring that I think can make a huge, huge difference. It starts with monitoring, but in order to monitor that, you also have to have an awareness of what is gendered behavior. So that brings me to my second point, learning about gendered issues.

You can't fix something if you don't know how to diagnose it. So let's stop thinking about gender issue as a woman's problem. Some men don't realize that they also have a gender and we can educate ourselves on gender issues. I actually listened to a great podcast. It's about gender from a man's perspective. It's called man enough, and it's incredibly thoughtful and nuanced and wrestles with really tough subjects.

So I really love that podcast. And as a parent, I think one thing, and this is just coming from my own personal experiences, it's not based on some of the research out there, but teaching girls to trust their inner compass at a really young age because women are exposed to so much gaslighting throughout their lives.

And what can really, really help is that we teach girls from a younger age to trust themselves. It doesn't mean that we don't teach them to be reflective or change their mind when they have more updated information on something, but it means when a little girl says something, instead of saying, are you sure? Why are you sure about that? And instead saying, oh, tell me why you think that way. And a response can be really, that small change can make a really big difference in how that girl turns into a woman and how she trusts herself as an adult.

AD : I know you said that's simple. I think it's very profound as a parent. I thank you. That is good homework for me there.

JM : Thank you. I appreciate that.

NM : Hesitancy to negotiate is one internal barrier women may face in negotiations. How do you guide women to overcome potentially self-imposed limitations in building the confidence needed to negotiate effectively, both in general sense and even more so in male dominated fields.

Coaching Strategies To Boost Confidence And Negotiation Skills [05:59]

JM : So one thing that I do with all of my coaching clients is I give three different types of data. And the first one is the gender research. Because you hear this, researcher's like, oh wow. Now so many of my own experiences make a lot of sense. It validates their own experiences and it's providing a larger context for their own experiences. So the research on women getting worse negotiation outcomes when there's ambiguity or women being challenged more than men, I bring all of these research to validate and also provide context.

The second piece of data is anecdotal data, whether it's from other women, whether it's my own experiences, other clients. And what it does is it counterbalances the feelings of isolation that you can feel when you're going through a really tough time when you feel like, oh my gosh, did I mess this up? And women are incredibly hard on themselves.

And the third piece of data I offer is I pull that data from what they have told me to demonstrate. You actually have been doing this and you can be good at it too. So I had a recent client, Ellen, she had reached out to me and she was just in a really bad place. She was overworked, burnt out.

She was in consulting and she was trying to get off of this project. Her leadership had given her all these promises, but they weren't fulfilling these promises. And she, in the end, reached out to a very senior member of the leadership team and leveraged her and her influence to get off of this project that she had desperately been trying to for weeks and months. And so when she came to me, she was like, oh man, my managers kept saying no and this and that.

I was like, but what I see, I see you having successfully actually utilize the negotiation strategies that you've learned, right? I teach a negotiation course online and I call all parties, PDMs, power brokers, decision makers and messengers. And I said, you got the power broker involved to influence the decision maker and to finally release you from this project. And she was being so hard on herself that she wasn't giving herself credit for. You obtained the objective that you set out for set. And so a lot of this is building up. You can do this and you have done this successfully, so let's just keep going. And that helps women overcome some of the obstacles and shift into a positive growth mindset.

AD : Those three points you shared around data, the reason that resonates with me, I was reading something recently talking about when you highlight those sorts of things, you are actually inoculating someone. And I'm wondering if the research shows that once you've hit those three points of data, again, don't want to oversimplify, but that in and of itself you're going to see a transformation and is that true? Do you see that to be true?

Prioritizing Mindset: The Key To Effective Strategy And Successful Negotiations [09:08]

JM : Absolutely. So when I first started the coaching, I used to jump straight into strategy, right? Here are the stakeholders, here's your framing strategy, here's the timing, here's the sequence. We went straight into strategy and I thought we had a solid plan, but with one of my early clients, everything fell apart the moment she entered that conversation. And it's because I realized we hadn't done the mindset work. We hadn't addressed all of these fears coming up, and we know, and there's plenty of research that shows how the psychological state can influence negotiation outcomes.

And so what I do in the very beginning is what you're talking about, this inoculation, right? We address the mindset issues so that they can take these fears over to the side and really focus on the strategy. That's when we roll up our sleeves and we get to work. But until I see that shift in the mindset and address any hesitations, none of the strategy work will be fruitful until we've done that work.

AD : As a consultant, a trainer, a coach, just looking at your website, mentoring, peer support are some potential strategies for overcoming negotiation reluctance. Can you share an example of what that looks like? Mentorship peer networks and how they've positively influenced someone's either ability to negotiate or the outcome they were able to achieve.

Leveraging Networks: The Crucial Role Of Information And Support In Negotiation Success [10:35]

JM : So networks are important for both the outcomes of the negotiation, but also the social support that one needs throughout a negotiation. And so I've had clients really utilize their networks well to get key pieces of information. So I've had clients where they're part of secret Facebook groups where everyone in the same industry was sharing their salary information so that everyone could have good information as they negotiate their own salaries. I did say make sure that there's some men's data in there because if every woman on that database is making 70 cents to a man's dollar, then that might not be good information.

So networks can be good for calling someone up and asking for information about an organization that they're applying to. And we saw this, there was one high profile case where Bradley Cooper shared with his co-star, Jennifer Lawrence, what his salary was for a movie that they were co-starring in so that she had good information to negotiate her own salary.

So networks can be incredibly powerful sources of information. We also see that they're important social support networks for women as they go through high stakes negotiations. If you read a memoir by any accomplished woman, you'll probably find the section where they talk about the group of women who supported them throughout the toughest decision-making processes in their lives.

So for example, I was reading Wendy Sherman's book recently and she talks about the group of high level women in government getting together and ordering Chinese food on a regular basis because that support network was psychologically and emotionally important. And so I always advise whenever you're going through a high stress, high stakes negotiation, have your people with you, and I even say sometimes, you might want to explicitly ask them, can you be part of my support network for these next two weeks as I go through this process

AD : And is bouncing ideas, rehearsing, sanity check on the request I'm about to make? I mean, is that the activity that's occurring?

JM : All of the above. It could just simply be like, I'm your number one cheerleader. I'm your hype woman. I'm going to remind you how accomplished and how amazing you are. Or it can be, do you want to role some interview questions? Right? It's whatever is going to be the most helpful for that individual in that moment.

NM : So what unique elements do your programs incorporate to address the specific needs of women in negotiation?

Making Negotiations Approachable And Inclusive For Women [13:08]

JM : So the first thing that I do is I try to make it less scary and less masculine. And the reason I do this is because when you ask, what do you envision when you hear the word negotiation, what word association do you have? What words come to mind? And most of the time, 80% of the time, they're either very masculine or they're negative associations. So anxiety, intimidation, men in suits sitting around a conference table. And so my professional brand is very approachable. Negotiation is a woman's thing too. Let's all do this together. And so I do try to make it less scary and more inviting, and I want women to know that this doesn't have to be a scary, intimidating thing.

The second thing I do, in the last couple of months, I launched an online course for women. And what the reason it's an online course for a woman is that for every fundamental that you might teach in your course, I've incorporated all of the gender bias information for every concept and all of the strategies that you would learn in the class that you teach Aram at Tuck or the YouTube videos that are out there.

I just make sure that I don't make any sort of statement on teaching a negotiation strategy without incorporating the gender bias information for each of those elements.

AD : So I already know the answer to my next question because you talked about being Korean-American, and I'm curious about the intersectionality of biases. How do you navigate that when gender and race are showing up or gender and culture, gender and ethnicity, whatever the other factors are, how does that impact maybe the nuanced approach that you might take with a client or coachee?

Creating Psychological Safety Across Diverse Workshops And Coaching Sessions [14:54]

JM : So for my workshops, I do what we call code switching, right? The language that I'm going to use and the way that I show up is going to be different based off of a workshop that I'm doing for let's say a very male dominated organization in the construction industry, the way that they talk about gender bias or racial bias is going to differ a lot compared to if I'm working with a social justice organization where I can talk about something, I can drop words like cis, heteronormativity and they all understand and nod instead of looking at me confused.

So that's going to be a little bit different in my private coaching, no matter the client, I validate their lived experience because I will tell you that I had too many people say to me in the past, that's not how it happened, or you're imagining it, or maybe you're being a little bit sensitive about this.

So I know from my own personal experience how harmful it can be to hear that, how it leads to you second guessing yourself and not trusting that inner compass that we had talked about. And so I don't want to perpetuate that with my clients. And what I've found is that anyone who has historically been othered a lot, mainly women of color, I find that they really value the psychological safety that I provide for them in that coaching and training because they don't have a lot of spaces where they feel that level of psychological safety and that they can say what's really on their mind.

To me, that's the foundation of any fruitful coaching relationship. It doesn't matter the particular background. And we can't group women of color all into one group because the bias that they experience is going to be different based on their demographic information, the way that other people perceive them. The stereotypes are going to be different for every subgroup. So we don't group them together. But what I will say is that the common thread there is that psychological safety is a very, very high priority for them.

AD : Thanks.

NM : How do you think about quantifying the effectiveness of your programs? And is there a particular success story from someone who has gone through your program that you can share?

Tailoring Workshops To Enhance Understanding And Inclusivity [17:12]

JM : Yeah. You know, I used to quantify success with how much of an increase in compensation I helped my clients get. So one of my early clients, let's call her Priya, she worked at a tech company, a household name tech company, big tech company. And when she first came to me, she had talked to a couple of people who were already working there and said, maybe I can get $12,000 more in overall compensation compared to their initial offer.

And after working with me, I helped her get over $60,000 in compensation that was much higher. And I used to talk about these numbers a lot because I was framing success and what I thought other people wanted to hear, and I thought it was a clear marker of success or quantifiable outcomes are easier to compare. But just because you can't quantify something doesn't mean that it's not important, right?

And as I reflect and I think about the work and what I consider a success, what drives me in this work is when I see a transformation and a woman starts to identify as an everyday negotiator, a shift in the mindset because that is going to impact every nook and cranny of her life. So when I get a text from a client from four years ago, she was so hesitant to negotiate, so scared, and now she's texting me about how she used the skills to negotiate her rent, her wedding details with her mother-in-law, or walking away from a toxic job like the agency that a woman feels after knowing how to negotiate that is what drives me in this work. That's what I'm passionate about. And so that to me is what true success looks like.

NM : Thank you.

AD : Man, I just want to stand up and cheer with an answer like that. I just think it's so authentic. And I agree this transformative aspect, the fact that it impacts every nook and cranny of life. And I loved, and I've had students who've come back and said, taking the course and working in this material allowed them to talk about your BATNA, to walk away from somewhere where they shouldn't have been. And even that is, you can't quantify that like you were doing with the numbers, but what a huge improvement in the satisfaction and value in that individual's life,

JM : Right. And the happiness. How do we quantify a happiness level, right?

AD : Well, Joan, this has been a great conversation. Nolan and I love visiting with someone who shares passion in this work. I'm going to wrap up with kind of a two-part question. Maybe just leave our listeners with a challenge and maybe an inspiration. Here are my questions. What final piece of advice or encouragement would you give to young women who are just at that beginning point of their professional careers? Question one.

Question two would be, and as you look at your own future, how do you envision your own role in supporting these women going forward?

Empowering Young Women To Invest In Meaningful Relationships [20:16]

JM : Thank you. Thank you for those questions. So the first one, what final piece of advice I'd give to young women is find your swat, find your hype crew, find your support network. And oftentimes in society, we get these sort of unconscious signals that we need to pour into our romantic relationships, but not quite as often. We get as much reminders to pour into our friendships and these other relationships that we have.

And so I really encourage young women to nourish and invest in those relationships because they are going to be your support network through so many different phases of their lives. Should I mention that we're recording this on Valentine's Day?

AD : I do. I like that answer too, both from experience and as a father. Alright, so let's get to the second part of it. How do you envision your own role in supporting these women? Where are you seeing yourself in the next 2, 5, 10 years?

A Multifaceted Approach To Tackling Inequities In Society [21:16]

JM : Well, I will answer with stating what my underlying interest is and not my position. So my underlying interest is to attack inequities from all angles. And that might mean training individual women. It might be helping organizations de-bias their structures and create more inclusive processes. I would love to also go back to working with the most marginalized populations in our society. And so I will keep it open at that. And if anyone wants to contact me about brainstorming and how we can meet those underlying interests, I would very much be open to that.

NM : Where's the best place for us to send them?

JM : I am at Moon Negotiation on Instagram and TikTok. I will be launching my own podcast soon. It's going to be a Collin show, so you can keep an eye out on social for that.

AD : Fantastic.

JM : I have a website called moonnegotiation.com, or if it's easier, you can find me on LinkedIn and I'll be releasing the express version of my online course very soon. So keep an eye out. We have a lot of irons in the fire.

NM : That’s awesome.

AD : It sounds like you do, and I'm not sure I've heard a bigger BHAG, Big Hairy Audacious Goal than attacking inequities from all angles, but haven't spent the last hour with you. I can tell you are the person for the job. So we will continue to be part of your support network, and we know you'll be part of ours and really grateful for this time and the insights you've shared. Thanks, Joan.

JM : I really appreciate you having me.

NM : So that is it for us on today's podcast. If you haven't already, please rate, review, and subscribe to the NEGOTIATEx podcast and we'll see you in the next episode.

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