Transcript

Nolan Martin : Welcome to the NEGOTIATEx podcast. I am your coast and co-founder Nolan Martin. With me today is Aram but also Aram, we have an incredible guest to introduce and that's Bryan Rodriguez. Bryan, thank you so much for joining us for today's podcast, man. We're excited to talk about real estate and negotiations.

Bryan Rodriguez : Awesome. I'm so honored to be here. I'm so blessed to be here. Definitely to be with my former professor at West Point in negotiation. So I feel like I'm back in class and ready to take, take a, take a WPR and so little nervous, but it's more excitement, you know.

Aram Donigian : You're not sweating enough to, to feel like we're really back in class there, Bryan

BR : I mean you, I got a bald ahead. So you probably see me glistening and stuff.

NM : Well, I'll kick it over to Aram. Aram, if you wanna introduce Bryan, I know that y'all have a much deeper relationship that goes back.

AD : Yeah. Our relationship goes back now over a decade, Bryan, we're, we're getting, we're getting old, right? 2009, we're getting ready to launch the West Point negotiation project, which has now been around for 13 years. Can you believe that?

BR : Amen.

AD : Jeff Weiss and myself are launching this endeavor at the encouragement of a lot of different folks. Who'd been, uh, out on deployments said, Hey, we need a broader reach to the military in terms of negotiation and influence skills. And so we around at the, what was called the MG 390 course at West Point, uh, negotiation for leaders course. And we reached out to the current students and we said, Hey, would we need be willing to help us? And we had, I don't know, three, four, maybe five students say, yeah, well we're willing to take this on. Now. Remember this is primarily second semester Firsties and anyone who has ever been in the last semester of a four year program or any sort of program, you tell me how much, how much energy and excitement do you have to put anything else new on the plate?

Right. And that in itself will tell you about Bryan and the other, his classmates who said, yeah, we'll help you out. Get this thing started. And I've got so many fond memories of you Bryan. I'll say this as we get ready to just kinda get to talk about where you are and what you're doing, I will say this: what impressed me most was your work ethic. Okay. You, you were always willing to out work the person next to you, your willingness to try something new. And if I remember right, were you a, were you a football player?

BR : Yes, sir.

AD : Yeah. Football player, man. What was your, was your management major as well?

BR : Management. It's the best major.

AD : And yet, what did we ask you to do? As we were launching the project, we asked Bryan to create a graphic, a logo for the project, which you did, you went and did, and it's evolved since then. OK. You were the, you created the first one and then you were also one of our key spokespersons at the conference that we, that we, the global leadership conference that we, that where we, we kind of launched the, the project, entirely. You were one of, of the key spokesperson. So those are a couple memories I have of you. Great to have you on. Thanks for joining us.

BR : No, it's, it's such a pleasure to hear that it just demonstrates like leaders give other leaders opportunities to grow and, and that, and that's what you did. And I'm always gonna be grateful and thankful. I'm gonna give you a hundred percent every time you call my name. So thank you.

AD : Yeah. Thanks Bryan.

How Did Negotiations Training Help Bryan Rodriguez In His Career? [4:40]

NM : Well, if we can kick this off and Bryan, so just past the negotiations course, obviously let's start with your military career. How did negotiations play a factor in the early part of your career? Just out of school and then we'll transition into what you're doing today.

BR : Yeah, so, you know, I finished West Point and in 2009, right. And, uh, and I go to the ordinance branch. And so that's a regimen of the multifunctional logistician branch. So first you are assuming that it's gonna be just Excel, right. You're just forecasting and doing planning factors. And though it was, I definitely got, I would say thankfully I got of different experiences. And so literally like on my first deployment right out the gate in 2010, I was deployed to Kirk Iraq in Kurdistan. And what was interesting there is I went as a maintenance platoon leader and literally a week before I got chosen to fall in, with my platoon of logisticians, to fall into Bravo company, 212 infantry. And so I had to become a maneuver platoon leader. So immediately right there, you know, you you're just like, wait a minute, there's immediate concern here.

We didn't really train like the infantry guys did for the mission and all my personnel didn't branch that. Right. So the, their motivation isn't there. So, you know, by the grace of God, you know, we did just find doing like counter idea, rolling QF checkpoints, season targets, close air spot, I mean, even KLE, right. Key leader engagements. And so there was just plenty of negotiations there. Right. And convincing your personnel to do a job that they were not expecting dealing with a commander that was not your branch and didn't trust you. So there was no relationship there. Right. And I could go into depth and stuff but yeah, I mean, every situation I've been in, it's always been a huge negotiation lesson. You don't really think about it right. When you're, when you're in the moments, but when you're asked to, to do some critical thinking and reflection, it's all, it was all negotiation.

Yeah. So I, I, I got the, you know, I got that privilege, did an array of things. I even, when I went to Afghanistan, I was able to be the first security force advise assist team they're known as FFAs. So I was the first commander, one of the first commanders. And it was, uh, it was a, we were a Guinea pig for the army at the time. And now it's a, you know, full fledge. And I actually had a submit, you know, like our, our negotiations review, back to your, one of your successors about the key leader engagements I've had as an FFAT in, in guiding the Afghan officials, et cetera. So yeah, it's been a part of the whole military and yeah. So yeah, just the answer to that.

AD : Bryan, it's just a great example of how these skills show up in any different sort of array of situations. As you think about, I mean, to encapsulate your military career, anything in particular jump out to you that like from a negotiation perspective, stays with you today in and we’ll get to the work that you're doing now, but is there something that kind of stays with you with everything you were talking about before, both with your kinda first deployment and then the second deployment, any sort of, you know, single principle or idea that you hold fast to?

BR : No, definitely. Cause you know, all these questions, we, we could go right into all these negotiation, um, you know, deep dives, right. And just to not get ahead of ourselves, I would think relationship and, uh, legitimacy, I think relationship and legitimacy are, are a really decisive, really important, in any, in any industry, any negotiation that you're in, you know, you're always dealing with individual people, their personalities, but you're taking action and that's whether you're communicating or demonstrating something, you always want to be legitimate as best you can. So those two principles really are consistent. And I'll, and I'll talk about that obviously through this.

AD : Yeah. Well, so let's, let's start to transition there cuz because we are really, you know, our, our goal, well, we'd love to swap more war stories and talk about, we really wanna talk about what you're doing now. So can you tell us how did… What, what was the transition point? When did you transition from, from the military what's that looked like and kind of what's this new field of real estate that you've gotten yourself into? And if you wanna just say you rode your wife's coattails here, we all know that's true. So anyways, go ahead.

Transitioning From The Military To Real Estate Negotiations [9:06]

BR : I mean, I would say you always have to leverage your resources, right. And, and, and your relationships, but real estate was parallel, with me as a young Lieutenant and it started with Lana, like I always say Lana got me into buying real estate and I got her into real estate service. So like sales and it was funny when I first met her, she was buying her first, her first property. And I was like, what are you doing? Parents buy houses. Right. And I was just young and I mature, but she really got me into that and it just got the bug while I was in the career, to understand how to leverage the VA loan, how to understand how to compliment real estate as just another form of revenue, wealth building, so forth. It got to the point where the, the big change was when my wife wanted to grow our family.

And she's like, “Hey, I want a kid”. And I was like, well, you gotta go back to work and you need to be an agent. And so, cause I knew she would do great. And like you said, riding the coattails of my wife. I mean, she was just like incredible. She like a bad outta hell and she did a great job and I really learned a lot, but at the same time I was trying to be Whoah and, and try to reach for the stars. But the business was pulling, was pulling us out of the army and you know, the Army's tough right. To, to make it a career and make sure everything works in your favor and you gotta give a lot to the army. So I had to call it quits. Right. And I was a homeless veteran for a little, and then I got into the university of Denver, cuz I really wanted to transition to become more of a professional, to be more legitimate in the eyes of people. So I got a master's of science in real estate, became a broker and I just complimented my wife and then eventually led into who I am and what I've started in real estate.

AD : Okay. Tell us a little bit about what, what you are like who, who you, who you are and what you are doing?

BR : Yeah. So I am an associate broker. So that means I'm not a broker who employs agents, but my wife and I are associate brokers and we own the Lana Rodriguez group. So that's a residential team. We do, we do commercial. I could talk about that. But we serviced, I mean, we've been real blessed in servicing families since 2015, we've serviced over 1200 families and almost half a billion dollars in just principles right. In, in selling real estate. So there's a lot of data points there that we've learned over the years. And then I've really leveraged our network, the black and gold summit I call it. It's a West Point conference for West Pointers by West Pointers. But it's just an example of what I, I always recommend people that, you know, riches are in the niches. And so, really focus on who you are. And I really double down on our community and you know, here in Colorado spring, I am very, I'm a huge advocate and I really want to change the landscape.

AD : That's so awesome.

NM : What I'm interested jump into Bryan is kinda understanding how do we move beyond or at least, you know, from the outside looking in, how do we move from beyond just the haggle over prices when it comes to real estate? I, I know we had kind of talked a little bit about the principled agent, so maybe we collaborate that in here, but really getting at, you know, can you even understand interests and generate options from an agent's perspective when buying a real estate?

Negotiating Beyond Haggling Over Prices: An Associate Broker’s Perspective [12:18]

BR : Yeah. So I I'm wondering if we should get into the Seven Elements of Preparation tool. Right. You know. I had to bring this on stage. Right.

AD : 🙂

BR : My notebook of the, the negotiations course that we took and I have like literally everything in there.

AD : You know, I'm gonna have to go back and change your grade to an a plus now, Bryan. Wow. All right. Yeah.

BR : I have all the tabs and everything.

NM : Can you change a C to an A plus?

AD : No, no Nolan you're stuck with a C

BR : But you know, so it's interesting because I think we wanna deeper into, into those elements and, and one of the beautiful things about real estate is that there's always a timeline, right? And there's a pre precontract timeline. There's a contract, there's a timeline within the contract. And then there's, you know, a timeline post closing. And that actually allows us to use that seven-element prep tool. It makes it just so much more effective because you, you got a foundation to always reference and it just helps get into those interests, options, legitimacy, alternatives, commitments, relationships, and communication. So I, I think we should go down that. Right. And so when, when you talk about interest in real estate and I'm obviously I'm gonna be very biased in, in this episode. Right. Cause I'm talking about real estate from a broker's perspective, surveying their clients.

So, so yeah, just, just a disclaimer, but uh, with the interest, you know, that's the first thing probably everyone thinks about is like, what does the buyer and seller want? And I think, I think, I think that's just, you know, kinda like the, the outline or the, the, the cream on top, but the real inside of it is understanding the purpose. Right. Cause you wanna make sure you're advising them effectively and understand why they're selling and why they're buying it's like in the military, it's really like understanding the commander's intent and like, what does that end state look like? And so when you understand that you definitely can get more creative and really getting into the interest. On the contrary, or like maybe further understanding their interests. I always say, let's chase their objection. You know? And in negotiations there is a famous book, right. Getting to Yes right?

I know, I know you would understand. I, I like to put a twist on things and I'm like, well, why don't we chase the objection, really understanding why they won't sell or why they won't buy. And usually when you chase the objection, it's more, pre-negotiations, like trying to get their business. So you can provide value to their interest and you know, simple examples, right? So for, let's say, a seller, right. A seller doesn't wanna pay capital gains tax. So they don't wanna sell right now because capital gains is based on short and long term. So that that's a great interest. And you understand that there's a tax implication regarding that interest to not sell. Let's say another seller doesn't wanna sell because they don't have a relationship with any of their, their people. Right. And they're just gonna die and go into probate. Right. And so you're wondering, well, oh, okay. That's why you don't wanna say even that's crazy, but these are actually real life examples. And the more you, you get into their interest and their objections, you really understand your industry and the product that much better. Yeah. So, you know, it's getting to yes. Chasing the objection. Uh, so that's that's interest. So, uh, I know I can be long winded, but

AD : No, Bryan, I, I think that's a great, those are great examples where I think that most folks, when they, when we come up to real estate, it's like, well, obviously they just want to get more. And it's, it sounds like there's when you, when, and I love your, I love your phrase, chase the objection. What a, what a great sort of concept that there's, there's more to it. Whether it's around tax implications, whether it's around inheritance or what's gonna happen to my state. I mean, there are a lot of, I mean, those are, you're getting into, especially you talking, start talking about their relationships and inheritance in the state. I mean, that's pretty deep sort of concerns that, that people are bringing to the table.

BR : No, without a doubt, you hit on the nail. I think the next part of it was options. Right? You talked about Nolan, options are interesting. You know, I always think options are an opportunity to be creative. If you understand the interest and you can derive to options. Right. And to me, I think options in real estate are a synonym of concessions because again, you're gonna sell, but you know, there's always, how are you gonna sell this? Right. It's never black and white. So options in real estate, my understanding are, are more concessions. So you're still trying to reach that decisive interest, right? Hey, I'm gonna sell or I'm gonna buy, but it's altered are just how you buy it or sell it. And so options in, and let's say selling, right? Uh, if you sell a property, let's say a house there's probably stuff within the property that the buyer wants.

BR : Right. So, you know, you were gonna reach the interest in, in selling the property, but an option is, is, Hey, we'll sell it with all the real property in the building. Right. And so that has a value that has a value both and emotionally and subjectively another one, let's say a buyer, right? Typical things in buyers market is where a buyer were like, Hey, I'll buy your house, but you need to pay all my closing costs. So that's, that's a very common, so, or you need a, let's say you go under contract and the buyer wants inspection items to be taken care of. Right. So they either fix it or provided credit. So there's always options. And, and it's crazy that the more juicier the deal, right, the more creative the options can be.

AD : Can we ask, putting you on the spot here, I'll get, give a simple example, but I'd love to know what your, if you had an example of a time where you were able to get really creative working with a client to, to kind of work a deal, maybe even, I don't know if one, one that was on the verge of not happening, but I'll give you my story real quickly.

BR : Yeah.

AD : We recently purchased, actually in the process of purchasing, uh, a rental property and the person that I'm, I'm working, the seller we had to, we had to just had to slide the closing is what we had to do because of tax implications. Again, we could have gotten really positional around this, but that was important. Right. And, you know, being able to work there, able to, you know, in exchange work some different modifications we wanted around painting and, and some flooring and stuff. We don't have the time pressure cuz of the anyways they wanted to get out of the, the capital gains window. And we, and we wanted some other things done. So just having, be able to have those conversations and then be able to get creative around it, curious now to come back to you, cuz that wasn't a super creative solution. You've had any opportunity to get real creative at the table, even around real estate.

BR : You know, I, I can't recall right now because I always feel like nothing's really creative. Right. I feel like I'm just trying to get to the answer. I would say it's, it's just really finding if you, if, if the buyer, if your client, uh, accepts right an offer, there's gonna be other things that are gonna have to accept down the line. And you've gotta be able just to adjust fire to each one of those typical things that I I've noticed, let's say in residential, in this market, it it's a, it's a seller's market. And so sellers, I mean, so buyers are, are literally auto neck because there's no supply high demand and sellers are controlling it. So there's high price and it's, it's very hard because the bottleneck holds buyers up into buying a property. Because they're like they're on a time crunch and they, they need to buy something.

And what's been really interesting and residential is I've been purchasing Airbnbs so that I can just fill that void for my clients. Right. Because the, the thing is you need to get these buyers to buy. If not, they're just gonna take the alternative and that's the threat. And so creatively in order to sustain that, uh, to keep my buyers in the fight, I've just provided housing. And so that, that that's been that, and, I'm in negotiations are the, the due diligence in trying to find a hotel so I can put my clients in there so they can have the, you know, the confidence that they're gonna be able to buy in a timely manner. Uh, so that's been, that's been created, but it's, really interesting. I mean, I just do whatever it takes and uh, I mean, I just have so many things. I can't really pin it down, but yeah. I always just find a way,

AD : Boy. I love, I love that idea that, that feels, you know, you, I know in the pre-call, we're talking in preparation a little bit disrupting the industry. Obviously people need a place to live. It puts 'em under a time pressure. If they're moving to find something right away to be able to, I mean, you talked about the, the importance of a timeline seems though, like, if you can stretch that out your opportunity to get your client into the very best place for them improves. So that, that sounds, I like really creative. I hadn't heard of that. Maybe that's common in the field. I'm just not familiar enough.

BR : No, it's, it's definitely not common because it's an expense, right? It's a responsibility have to hold that, you know, hopefully there's a profit, but it's all about experience at the end for the client, right. Yeah. You know, and it creates that relationship. I, I, I think we're on a roll and I think we keep going down that seven. Right. And really talk about how that seven element applies to, to my field. Um, alternatives. I, I generally like to stay away from them because I feel that that that's just going towards the deal falling apart. Because once you're you start getting away from that decisive interest, like I'm gonna buy or sell. I, I, I just feel like it just turns into something that never was intended. And in real estate, let's say I was gonna buy and I can't buy, I'm just gonna rent.

That's the alternative. And I'm just like, well, now it's a leasing operation and it's, it's completely different, right? Yeah. Or even a seller, right. When the seller wants to sell their property, but they can't sell it for whatever X reason. So the alternative is like, well, I'm just gonna refinance. So I'm gonna pull all my equity out and I'm gonna do, you know, have a new principal and then probably not sell because he's already pulled out the equity. He is already at the height. Right. So he's got his money. So the alternatives are, are, are stuff that I feel like you, you then start leading to your, and then that BATNA is what, the best alternative. And when you get in the bat, sir, you guys can tell me if I'm totally wrong. Right. But the BATNA for me just is your, is your ace up the sleeve for a threat.

You know? And, and I just like, why, why are we getting there? And, and, and, and so, cause then it, then it goes to threats. And so, I mean, if you look at it, the opposite, you know, alternatives could lead to like keeping the deal alive. Right. Cause maybe they don't sell now. And then what they do is they lease right to the other client, to the buyer and then they just buy later. Right. You know? And so there there's ways to, to, I, I guess, to a mix of both options and alternative, but I, I feel like you, you go down the road to threats,

AD : Right. Well, that's, that's a common path for alternatives. Right. And, and I like how alternatives do several things for us and, and, and your management of them. I, I feel is pretty indicative, right? You're, you're talking about how by understanding what the alternative is. You can talk about how gee that, that alternative doesn't really satisfy your interest as well as continuing down the path of the sale or continuing down the path of a purchase. It also as with it is, as it reveals more around interest helps us go back. And as you just said, I mean, come back and say, well, maybe we don't sell now, but we can lease to you with a plan to purchase down the road, which starts to get to another sort of creative option. So, yeah, it's a really, really interesting mix of it, you know? And then again, it's a seller's market. It would seem that sellers have a lot more alternatives in terms of different buyers they could sell too. Are there ways that a buyer that you're seeing buyers distinguish themselves as a more attractive option versus the other folks that they could sell to? I mean, there are things that are more appealing to potential sellers. I guess we're really talking about kind of residential sales. Maybe, maybe it applies, I don't know.

BR : Yeah. Yeah. I, I think that goes more into communication. Right. And how are you communicating that buyer or that seller or the product or the service or the offer, right. Yes, that, that is incredibly important because if you think about it, it really depends on the seller, but if let's say the seller is, oh, right. It's more just open to the offers, right. A stellar will receive tons of offers. And so how do you really distinguish that offer from let's say fit the offers. Right. And so there, there's a lot of legitimacy that goes in that and really underwriting what that price is and then providing terms, right. And the terms would have to satisfy the seller, but don't jeopardize the buyer either. Right. Because you know, seller's market is tough. It is tough. The buyers are, you know, becoming exhausted and they feel like they're giving everything. So, yeah. I mean, that's a great point is like, how do you showcase your client and the offer. So right on there.

Balancing Client Representation With Relationships With Other Agents [23:51]

NM : I got a question for you, Bryan. So real estate negotiations are obviously multi-part negotiations. So how do you maintain a relationship with the other agent and also representing your client that, you know, you don't want this just to be a, a single one time transaction. You want it to be multiple times that y'all are able to work together in the future. So how important is relationships? Like what do you do to make sure that you don't get screwed and you don't screw anyone kind of, uh, if, if this is even as important as I think it is,

BR : I love that question because one, it's, uh, my opinion on the industry and, uh, and it's my, my opinion in people. Right. And so, and, and we cut and, you know, it's how you grew up, right. Is, is how I, I think I'm gonna answer that question, man. So let's, let's I guess, scope it. So with the relationship between agents, right? The buyers and sellers, that's the question, correct? Yep. Okay. So real estate's easy. People are crazy. Like, like let's like black and white. I'm crazy. You guys may not think you're crazy, but I think we're all crazy. But anyway, uh, it's just, uh, just kinda answer that question, black and white, but it's so important. And the other side has to be receptive, right? There's such a, a pride in, in, in sales regardless, right? Whether I'm selling medical devices or I'm selling, you know, construction equipment or whatever, the case you are, you are representing a brand you're representing yourself representing, you know, high value items.

Right. And so there's always this ego that that's involved. So it's the other party is receptive and willing to, to hear your side, hear your client side, uh, and really learn, you know, it's funny, I've had so many conversations with other agents. They're like, I'm, I'm interested in being humbled, you know, and then you're just like, OK, that that's not, that's not, not trying to humble you just trying for us to come and, and see, see different sides. Right. And, and if they're not willing to do that, you really can't go nowhere. And it just becomes really objective, right. This is the price you don't satisfy the price or the terms then, you know, moving on to the next one and you have such a tight window, right. Especially residential, it's a lot of frequency, right. Uh, versus commercial. It's not like everyone's buying a, a 500 unit hotel for 25 million to convert.

Right. So you have a lot more, um, window to create that relationship. So it one, if they're receptive and two, do they speak that same language, right. Because if they're not at that same level as you and you just overwhelm them, right. It, it, it, it's so hard. So you wanna make sure you speak their language because it's still a seller's market. So you don't want to come imposing or, or over overkill. Right. And so once you get, once they're receptive, and once you get the same language or the same frequency with them, the, the, the tone, then you can get more effective. And you can, if they're willing to go back to the seller too, that's I guess the final part is like, how are they as a, as a professional to go back to their client? Because it, it remember you will representing the client and, and the way real estate works is that the seller compensates the agents, uh, both buyer and seller.

So you could think about the seller, like, wait a minute. You're not working in my interest. Why are you coming back with more terms? Right. So those are those three things. That's like, you know, are they receptive? Can you speak to, can you guys speak same medium? And, and then finally are, how professional are they? But yeah, like, uh, I mean, I love this stuff. Uh, just getting into this, when you start talking about, uh, I want to go back to the alternatives and leading to threats, and I feel like threats is what makes the drama of, of real estate, right? Like I'm not gonna buy an eye walk. Right. You

NM : Know, that's the only reason I watch the real estate show. So

BR : It's funny, you said that, uh, uh, just a random point selling sunset. Right? I don't know if you ever seen that. Netflix.

NM : I think I saw,

BR : I paid my, I paid my, I paid them, this thing called cameo where they'll send a message on their birthday. And I just, I just really funny get all tangent, but like in regards to threats, to me, threats are like really childish, you know? And I feel like if you're gonna get to threats, it's because, cause of AATE and it's, or, or the parties are just irrational, right. They just become really hostile. And another thing about threats, it's, it's really poker face. And so if you're gonna threat you better move forward, because the moment you, you start with your limp command hand, you know, I mean, you're vulnerable. And in, in an experience that I've had, is that, do you ever threat make it real act and send the message, but also I've learned how to threat you. Don't threat like buyer to seller you threat buyer to atmospheric, to like third party vendor.

BR : So for a example, like when you threat, Hey, I don't think that if we don't get this deal done before the end of the year, I don't think I'm gonna be able to buy, because one, I'm not gonna reach the 10 31 timeline. Uh, the interest rates are gonna go up the shortage, the labor and material shortages are going up. I won't be able to get, I can't, I can't buy until I get the job. Right. Um, so you wanna threat using someone else or something else? Um, you never wanna say like me, does that make sense?

AD : Well, yeah. And it also sounds like you're tying it back to two things you've talked about before, which is the interest in legitimacy, right? So the, the in who don't get satisfied, we're Ty we're tying, this is why this threat is, or this alternative is valid, but also in terms of like we're benchmarking against, you know, interest rates and other things that are somewhat objective.

BR : No, it it's. Right. Um, it's just the threats I've just experienced are just all they take it. Super. Yeah. So if you could take that person out of it. Yeah. Oh, wait. I think it's so much easier.

NM : All right, guys, we're gonna have to end it right there. We're gonna cover this further in part two, that we're gonna be playing for you next week.