Hey everyone! Welcome back to the NEGOTIATEx podcast . Today, we are continuing our conversation with Brian Ahearn . If you don’t already know, Brian is an international trainer, consultant, and TEDx presenter on ethically influencing individuals.
He is also among the 20 individuals globally holding a Cialdini Method Certified Trainer (CMCT) accreditation. Brian’s book, “ Influence People: Powerful Everyday Opportunities To Persuade That Are Lasting And Ethical” was listed by Book Authority as one of the Top 100 Books on Influence.
If you are tuning in for the first time, we highly recommend that you check out the first part of this podcast episode on NEGOTIATEx.
Brian went into great detail explaining the first four principles of persuasion: reciprocity, liking, authority, and consensus. Now, let’s jump right in and pick up where we left off.
Having spent a good deal of time in the sales industry, Brian understands the importance of consistency in persuasion. Over the years, he has learned that human beings always feel the need to be consistent in what they say and do.
People feel good about themselves when their deeds and words are aligned. It has been found that they tend to do a job more efficiently when they have publicly promised to do so. Thus, it’s always a great idea to ask and not tell others what to do.
For instance, when an employee is told to finish a job by a specific time by his employer, chances are high that they will come up with all sorts of excuses because there is no consistency involved. However, when that same employee is asked if he would be able to finish the job by the specified time, they will be much more motivated to get the job done without delay.
That’s because, firstly, they don’t want to feel bad about themselves. And secondly, they don’t want to diminish themselves in the eyes of their employer by not being consistent with what they had promised. When we stop telling and start asking others what to do, we engage consistency, an integral principle of persuasion.
Next, Brian professes the importance of authenticity in negotiations. It’s imperative for a salesperson to have an in-depth understanding of who they are, the company they are representing, and the service or product they are selling. This will equip them to sit down and close a deal with a potential client at any time without breaking a sweat.
Additionally, Brian strongly advises keeping the tone conversational and avoiding asking too many questions that could make the conversation sound more like a sales pitch than a one-on-one discussion. The objective here is to represent ourselves as authentic individuals, with the sole focus on helping clients looking for our services.
It’s always highly recommended that we rehearse well before an important presentation so that we can give our best to the audience we are in front of. As far as Brian is concerned, he prefers going through his entire presentation two weeks to one month before the date. While he doesn’t make it seem like it’s memorized or scripted, he ensures that the audience believes he knows what he is talking about during a presentation.
Brian believes that scarcity, another essential principle of persuasion, can be used to convince potential clients to buy his services. In other words, there is a good possibility that someone will want to buy your service if you have it and no one else on the market does.
Note that he is not asking the listeners to be fearmongers or use scare tactics. What he is really asking them to do is reframe their sales pitch and explain the downsides of not having the policy/service to the potential clients.
According to the principle of unity, it is relatively easy to say yes to people who we feel are one of us. And that’s because when we do so, we feel as if we are saying yes to ourselves. While explaining these principles, Brian cites a few examples from his personal life to help the listeners understand the real power of unity better when it comes to persuasion.
For instance, a retired marine corp officer will find it easier to relate to another marine corp officer since they have both undergone similar situations during their service. Similarly, people are more likely to help their fellow military personnel from their own unit rather than those from a different unit.
So, when both of them help each other, they will feel like they are helping themselves.
In order to persuade people effectively, we need to make sure that we make them feel that we are one of them. In case we don’t have an affiliation with the people we are trying to influence, we can build it by being together and acting together.
In this tech-driven day and age, the only way people can succeed in influencing others is by understanding them, instead of “influencing” them. We need to make a conscious effort to look for what we have in common instead of trying to stand out. Lastly, Brian suggests that it’s always a good idea to take conversations offline whenever possible for achieving the desired results and build real human connections.
Aram, Nolan, and Brian Ahearn go into much greater detail on the Principles Of Persuasion in this episode of the NEGOTIATEx podcast. Write to us at team@negotiatex.com and let us know, how do you ethically influence people in your professional life?
Thank you for listening!
Nolan Martin : Hey everyone! Thanks for joining us on the NegotiateX podcast. We are continuing our conversation with Brian Ahern, the Chief Influence Officer at Influencepeople. If you haven't already listened to part a of this show, you're gonna make sure that you do that before. Continue listening to this one. Let's jump into principle number five, consistency.
Brian Ahearn : Consistency says that we, human beings, feel this internal, psychological pressure, but also an external social pressure to be consistent in what we say and what we do. And since that's a mouthful, I always boil it down to word and deed. Most people feel better about themselves when their words and deeds line up. But the problem that people have when we talk about this is, they're so directive and they tell people what to do.
And so me telling you, Nolan, I need the sales report by Tuesday does not engage consistency. If you don't get me that report, you haven't promised, you might have even internally said, “What the heck with you. I'm not getting it. I'm busy”, or there there's all kinds of reasons.
But if I say Nolan, would you be able to get me the sales report by Tuesday? And you say, yes, you will do a lot more to make that happen. First and foremost, because you don't wanna feel bad about yourself. And then second, you don't wanna look bad in my eyes. So, the key with this, I always tell people is stop telling and start asking every time you're telling somebody what to do. You are not engaging this principle, but by asking and waiting for affirmation, that's where you engage it.
Aram Donigian : Can you say a little bit more about that? I don’t know if you have an example, um, how do you use that either from a sales or a negotiations perspective in a very sincere way? Cause I, I, I guess, um, yeah, I'm just curious what that looks like or sounds like.
BA : So, most people in a sale become a walking billboard and they're gonna go in there and they're gonna tell you the three to five to 10 reasons why you should do business with us. The better sales people will understand how to frame all of those into questions. So, that they can ask, you know, Aram, is it important to you that, or Aram are you looking for, or, but something where they're taking those to elicit from you what's important. So, let's say I ask you five questions and three of those, you come back and clearly want something that I know that we're offering. That's where I'm able to then step in and say, you know, Aram, it sounds like we should have more conversation around this because you know, when I asked you about this, we do that.
And when I asked you about B, um, we're one of the leaders in the industry in that. And, and so all of a sudden, I'm now coming back and telling you, we do what you've just told me was important. So, I've asked the right questions to elicit from you what's important rather than just being a billboard and pushing out, you know, 10 reasons and hoping three of them stick.
AD : Thank you, cause I think you were kind of bringing, as I was listening to you. Bring the light for me, kind of the, what I was wrestling with, which was, yeah, I think a lot of sales people see their job as I need to deliver, you know, I need to deliver a message to you and the more times, and the louder I deliver it, the obviously the better it'll come through with what you just described though, too.
How do you prevent that from feeling like a trap? Like you're, luring me down a path and then you're gonna, you know, entrap me with ah, gotcha, this is what I wanna say. How, how do you make that sincere?
BA : I think that comes through authenticity where it feels like we're just having a conversation and, and so, uh, it's not like, well, I'm gonna ask you 10 questions. Okay. I ask question one and I write it down. I ask you question two and I write it down and you just feel like you're going through a check box. I should know who I am, the company I represent and, and the product or services that we offer so well that I can just sit down with anybody anytime, and I can have a conversation.
And if I really have taken what I think are the, the top reasons to do business with us and I have kind of framed them into questions and I've practiced a little bit. It should be extremely conversational where you're not feeling like I'm asking you the question, you know, knock, knock, knock on the door.
Do you like to save money? Yes. You like to support local businesses. Yes, Right? And you, you feel like you're railroaded down this path that, you know, you don't want to go down, but you're finding yourself wanting to just close the door and go away. That's not what we're talking about. We're talking about being an authentic individual who truly is trying to help the clients that you serve.
AD : Does that mean sometimes you let them walk?
BA : Absolutely! I had a zoom session about a month ago. Uh, somebody had reached out to me. They'd got my name from somebody. And then the owner of the insurance agency also was on the session. So we're talking about what I do. And I can see with the owner it's, it's resonating. I mean, he's smiling, he's nodding, I'm getting all the signals. And then she says, and she's the one who's gonna be in charge of setting up the training.
And she says, I understand what you're, what you're talking about, but we need somebody who's gonna put in a sales process and develop the metrics and do these things. Can you help us with that? And I said, no. I said, but I can recommend people. I said, that's not my expertise, but when you lay out your sales process and you have everything in, I can come in and help you make it better.
BA : Because at every step in it, I can show you how to apply these principles of persuasion. So, that ended up being somebody that I wasn't gonna do business with, but I'm very confident that I will do business with them in the future because the owner really liked what he heard. And I was honest with them about what I can and can't do and went so far as to make some recommendations, whether or not they use them. I know they think that was kind of my part. So, I'm not looking to close every sale. Not everybody is the right client for me.
AD : Well, that's what you said authenticity. You said honesty. I would also probably add there's some humility involved in, in, in what you're describing too.
BA : Yeah. I don't want to, I mean, I've had some people who said, oh yeah, I got a contract. I didn't know what I was doing, but you know, I figured it out. Okay. That's okay. For some people I'm staying awfully busy with the clients that I do have. I don't have time to necessarily figure something out like that. But I also, if I'm truly honest and there's already experts out there, I may be able to build something, but it may not meet their satisfaction where an expert could come in and help them build something that would make them go. Wow, this is awesome.
AD : All right, Nolan. I know you. I know you wanna keep us moving onto the next principle. I got one rabbit trail though. Cuz Brian twice now has said, and you just said it here talking about consistency. You talked about the power of rehearsing and that's something that, you know, Nolan and I always harp on Brian is that there are these, these things are things we can practice, before we practice them, right? We can rehearse them. What sort of guidance do you give or coaching you give either to clients or in trainings around rehearsing?
BA : Well, I use myself as an example when I'm getting ready to do a big key note, depending on how much time I have anywhere from two weeks to a month, I'll go through my entire presentation every day and I will have it up on my, on my big screen behind me so that I can see the graphics and I will be walking around this room and I've got a clock out. So I know exactly what I'm gonna hit. And, and I don't miss my marks because I've internalized it so much. It's not, it will never be scripted or memorized, but it will sound like, wow, this guy just knows what he's talking about. And that comes like anything. Like, I watched the PGA championship yesterday. Those guys, their swings look amazing, but they're not naturals. They practice unbelievable hours. And we, when we have an opportunity to get in front of a group and influence them, we should never ever wing it. It should be that we have thoroughly prepared ourselves so that we can give our best effort to that audience that we're in front of.
AD : I'm gonna pass it back to Nolan. That's beautiful though, in terms of a takeaway when we have the opportunity to influence, never wing it. Right. Really practice it. Thanks Brian.
BA : You're welcome.
NM : And so, now I wanna get into principle number six and that is scarcity.
BA : So we, we touched on scarcity when we were talking about the reframing into the bonus and scarcity is simply that we value things more when we think they're rare or they're going away. The moment that we think we may lose an opportunity, something in us is like, and we kind of want that thing more. And so, as I mentioned earlier, I don't want people to be fearmongers, I don't want scare tactics, I don't want them to come across as Debbie or Danny Downer.
But I want them to honestly think about how I can reframe what I've always tried to be rah-rah-rah about and say, I'm gonna be honest with you. You know, here's the downside. If we don't take this particular action, implement this policy, engage with this service. What could somebody suffer as a consequence from that? And as long as you're being truthful about that, then you are framing what you're offering in the best light possible to help them make a decision that you really believe is gonna benefit them in their organization.
AD : Yeah. It's about value, isn't it? Brian, cuz I, and I always, I, I define value as you know, the satisfaction of my interest and your interests. So, fears, needs, concerns, motivations, how well we can do that together. And, and then, and the scarcity kind of gets to, I think we can do better together than where you could go elsewhere. Is that, I mean, does that resonate?
BA : Yes. I, one of the things I talk about as an ethical influencer is it can't be just good for you to, to get the deal. It's gotta be good for them too. And so I always put it this way. Good for you. Good for me then we're good to go. So, if I'm creating a situation that's beneficial to both parties. If I have demonstrated value and, and I learned this a long time ago, um, value is what I get divided by price. So, you know, if I can get more of something for the same price, that's a better value.
Or, if I can keep getting the same thing and the price goes down, that's a better value. Now, you can't always plug actual numbers into that, but that mindset of making sure that I'm showing them so clearly what they're getting for what they're paying so that they're like, wow, that's a lot more than I expected. Most people don't do that now they understand that they're getting a better value out of that system. So, uh, yeah. Value can be the, what I get could be the here's what you will miss out on.
AD : Yeah. And I like that you brought in, sometimes it's very clear, it's tangible, it's easy to find, sometimes it's maybe more intangible. That doesn't mean we still shouldn't have that conversation. It's a similar conversation. Just defined a little differently,
BA : Absolutely.
NM : Now we are onto the last principle, principle number seven unity.
BA : So, unity says that it's easier for us to say yes to those who are of us, of our tribes, so to speak or our family, or I'll use an example that, that you guys and your, your listeners will really relate to. Uh, my father served in the Marine Corps during Vietnam and, and from the time I was a little kid, I could always tell when dad met another Marine, especially those who'd been in combat. I felt like he was closer to them than me, his own son.
And I never really understood it until I began to learn about this principle of unity. And unity, again says that it's easier for us to say yes to those who are of us. And it's really because when you are saying yes to that other person, it's as if you're saying yes to yourself, you know. I can use my dad as an example, when he helped another Marine, it was like he was helping himself, the satisfaction, joy that he would get out of that.
BA : Uh, if you go to something like AA, right? There's a tightly knit group of people who, if you're not alcoholic, you probably don't really totally get it. But when a sponsor helps somebody who's trying to get sober, I'm sure that they feel incredible satisfaction, like this is joy for me to help them.
And so that's what unity is really about: helping those other people is like helping ourselves. So, I always tell people, this is much deeper than mere liking. This is about sharing an identity and we will always want to help those that we share an identity with above almost everybody else.
AD : So what, what, what do we do when we don't, when we don't necessarily share an identity, we don't have an affiliation with the person we're trying to influence. Are there ways we can try to build it and establish it, knowing how deep this, this power, this, this principle is.
BA : Well, being together and acting together are two ways that you can start forming unity. Acting together in a sense, and again, for you guys, you're in the military, you see that having individuals march in unison forms a cohesive unit, that is one of many steps in getting that group of people to form as a unit. So, it's easier for people within that unit to certainly do our help for one another than it would be for them to do our help for another unit.
But a lot of that is you start moving in synchronicity. You feel like you're one. So if you can, um, incorporate any of that. The other thing is sometimes just being together, either for lengths of time, sometimes people are like, wow, you know, we've worked together now for 20 years. And if you really start thinking deeply about that, you go through a litany of things.
BA : You see people get married, have kids, maybe lose a spouse. I mean, the whole gamut of what we experience in a family, you can experience in an organization. So, tapping back into that with some of those employees, if you don't have that length of time, one other way when you are in highly, emotionally charged situations, right? You will probably never forget how you felt.
And so if the three of us went through something that was really dramatic, somehow we would always be able to probably instantly bond right away over that. And that memory could be something that could make any one of us go above and beyond for the other,
AD : One first to comment and then I have a question time to take us in a direction here. So, first I just wanted to thank your dad for his service and, and Marines are always that way, right? You're never, you're never an ex Marine, you're ex Army, you're just a former Marine. Okay. Ready? Ready to put it back on, uh, and Marines have that great affiliation with each other.
I do have a question as you, and I think this, this of all of them, unity kind of raises, um, kind of where we are in 2022, as well as some of the other principles you've talked about, where does it hold?
Do these hold, even with what we see in terms of social media technology, shifting modalities, I mean, whether zoom or email or text and how we're communicating, do we just need to be more aware of these principles?
Do they start to break down? I, I, what's your thoughts about, you know, kind of from this, the technological advances we've seen in 2022 now are where we sit in 2022 and, and kind of impact on our ability to influence and persuade.
BA : It can be good and bad because people can use this information, uh, or, or this understanding in, in very positive ways. And they can use it in very negative ways. I've seen people, for example, they think they understand social proof and they would put out something that says, Hey, 97% of my friends, uh, aren't gonna have the guts to take action on this. Will you be one of the 3%?
I understand the motivation. They want to get people on board, but that message is working against you. If 97% of people aren't gonna probably do it, then why should I, right?
So, they fundamentally don't understand how to apply the principle of scarcity, right? Everybody's fear mongering. Um, and, and so I try to not engage in any kind of conversation online. If, if I saw one of you guys posted something, and I was curious about it, I'd probably send you a message or send you a text or do something to connect offline.
BA : And I might say, look, I don't wanna jump in the fray. People who don't know me, then they start making these, these accusations against me. But could I talk about your view? I'm interested to learn more. That's the way that you start overcoming some of this and people right now are really looking for everything that makes them different. And we need to start coming back and make it a conscious effort to look at what we have in common.
And, uh, I will give you an example. It's not social media-related, but, uh, I get together with some friends who are black, you know, once a month, once every other month. And it's only to talk about our experiences growing up, our experiences in the work world, you know, tell me about this.
You know, here's how it was for me. It's never about trying to influence them. It's about understanding them. And if more people would have those kinds of conversations offline, in person, I think the world would be a lot better place.
NM : Yeah. Brian, that's a very interesting, as, you know, concept that you're implementing, you're actually doing in practice. This is very similar to along the lines of what Joe Bobman is doing, who we've, who we've had on the podcast. So, I think that would be an interesting podcast episode for you to check out as well as your listeners.
If you think that you, you know, just getting together, not to influence, but just to understand the problems just a little bit better, I think that's, um, sounds like it's a pretty, pretty effective way to really change the way you think, or at least become more aware.
BA : Yeah. It's been powerful. And, what we're trying to do now is invite others in, because we don't want to just continue to have a one-on-one conversation. So we started getting a group. Usually it might be five, maybe six of us get together for maybe dinner or drinks and, and sit down and, and just share.
NM : That's great. All right, Brian, so this is about the time in the podcast where we ask our guest to kind of describe a failure that you may have had and in, in trying to influence someone or as a negotiator. But then also a success that you've had that you'd like to share with us and appreciate you being completely honest. You absolutely don't have to.
BA : No, the failure took place, uh, several years before I really began to learn about influence and my wife and I, we were out buying a car, you know, there was, uh, APR like 5% or I forget whatever it was, but, so we, we start getting well into the paperwork. And, there was this gentleman who wasn't using a computer, he was writing everything down.
So, it's slow. It's as if they, you know, just want to keep you there. And at some point, when he writes down the APR number, I said, well, wait a minute. It said it was like 5%. Why are you using 5.2? And, he's giving me the hum and haw. And then the manager comes in, and they do some stuff. And they're like, okay, you know, it would've been $185. It's only gonna be $190. And I'm like, fine.
BA : I'm not gonna quibble over five bucks. But the reality was, it was five bucks every month for five years. So it would end up being $360 or something. If he, if I would've been thinking at that moment, well, wait a minute. The price of the car just went up $360. I wouldn't have made that decision.
I would've at that point called him on it and said, look, I, I think something unethical is happening here. And now if you don't lower the price by $360, then I'm gonna walk and you've got five minutes to make the choice. That's how I would handle it now. But I didn't know it then and paid more for the car than I should have
AD : Are unethical behavior still pretty rampant in the influence, persuasion, negotiation realm?
BA : Oh, absolutely. I, uh, I, I do my best to try to get people to think about how they can do it ethically, but it stands out. I mean, whether I'm watching a commercial or listening to a politician or watching the news, I'm like, it makes me want to go crazy sometimes because it's so biased, slanted and unethical.
So much of what is coming at us that you don't even start to understand it until you're stepping back learning about the psychology: what it means to be ethical versus manipulative, and then your eyes are open and it's not a pretty picture a lot of times.
AD : Yeah. Thanks, Brian. Thanks for saying that. And thanks for the work you're doing, uh, around, around, you know, the ethical nature of this. Can we go back to Nolan's second question, which is sure. What do you consider to be a major success with regards to, uh, your work in this field and application.
BA : Biggest success I probably had was five or six years ago. I was at an insurance agency in St. Louis, and they were in a small suburb of St. Louis and they wanted to move the agency into St. Louis. So we went through this two day workshop that I do. And at the end, we strategize about a real situation coming up. So, the dad who owned the agency, two sons and daughter were with me and they said, okay, here's our problem.
We have this building that we have all the plans for. We wanna move in the city, the Rams just left. We wanna support the city, but we're getting push back from somebody on something like the historical preservation society or, and they're contending over like the height of the fence for the parking lot and where the door is. And certain other things that just seemed trivial.
BA : So, as we talked about it, I said, you know, I think you need to approach it this way: by telling that other individual, we both want the same thing. You want a building that will, that the city will be proud of and will represent, you know, the architecture and history.
We want a building that our employees and our customers will be proud of. Can't we figure this out? So, the next day they're going into the negotiation and I was getting texts from them like, Hey, we're thinking about what we learned.
We're gonna put it into play. What ended up happening was at the most tense time in the negotiation, one of the brothers said, I think we both want the same thing. We want a building that you'll be proud of. So do we, and he kind of went into detail and the person said, thank you.
BA : I've never drawn a line in the sand that I wasn't willing to cross. I appreciate that. And they got the deal done. The reason that was such a big thing for me is they've moved this family business into this building where they'll probably be for a generation or more, some of the kids who might grow up and work there may not know who Brian Ahern is, but I'll always be able to say, I helped you get into that building, that your family and your customers and, and, and your clients, um, and employees have come to for decades. And that felt really good!
AD : That's a wonderful impact. Okay. So here's the next question then? Brian, that's such a wonderful kind of professional business example. Can you apply these things in personal life? You've said you were married for 34 years now. You have a daughter getting married. Congratulations. Thank you. Does it work at home as well?
BA : It does, but I'll tell you they use it on me and sometimes I'm not even aware of it. <laugh> so my, my wife many years ago said, uh, Hey Joe, and that's my stepmom. She said, Joe's turning 65. And she really wants to go to Scotland to play golf. Would you mind if I went with her? And I said, well, yeah, I kind of mind because I want to go and now isn't the right time. And then she said, fine. Do you mind if I go to Florida for the week to play golf with her, then I said, no, I don't care at all. She comes back later and says, I never really wanted to go to Scotland.
I just knew it would make Florida much easier by comparison. She goes, you teach this and you didn't catch that. And I said, my radar is not always up with my loved ones, but well played . So, and my daughter, you know, the same thing too, where my daughter engages consistency. She's always bringing up what I've said or done in the past. Hey, dad, you wanna go do this? I might be like, nah, not really. And she goes, remember when you, and she'll bring something up and then I'm like, fine, I'll go. So they're very effective at getting me to do what they want.
NM : You know, guys, I think we're onto something here because we had the former FBI hostage, negotiator, Gary Noesnerr on the show and he said the same thing that he just can't get it to apply it in his own, family situation. But it seems to always work against him.
AD : I just take it, Nolan, that Brian, Gary and others are just, they're such good. They're so good at training and teaching this stuff that, you know, it's, you know, when, when the, when the student has become the master, um, you know, it's, uh, it's, there's a quote. I forget it now from Yoda and Luke, but that's what it is. Right, so.
NM : Absolutely. All right. So wrapping this up here, Brian, for all of our listeners who do end up picking up or wanting to pick up this book, what is like the one key takeaway? Why should they get this book? What are they going to learn? That's gonna help them be better negotiators.
BA : Well, usually what I will ask right off the bat, when I'm on stage, I'll say, you know, by a show of hands, how many of you would agree that much of your professional success and personal happiness depends on getting people to say yes.
And every hand goes up because they know whether, if they're leaders, they've gotta get people to say yes, if they're sales people, uh, if they're customer service reps, we all have to get other people to say yes, if we wanna enjoy success at the office. And then they start thinking about, well, yeah, life is a lot more pleasant and happy at home.
When those around me more willingly do what I ask of them rather than with friction. So every hand is up. And then what I tell 'em is fundamentally what we're gonna talk about is how to get more people to say yes to you. More often, we're gonna talk about how to influence people.
So, if any of your listeners resonate with that, that their success and happiness rests in large measure on getting others to say, yes, that's why you want to pick up the book because I put into practical application seven or more decades of research into very tangible ways that people could go, oh, I clearly see that I could do that.
NM : Absolutely. I think that's a great explanation again, “Influence People: Powerful Everyday Opportunities To Persuade That Are Lasting And Ethical” by Brian Ahern, pick it up or listen to the audio book. Cialdini recommended both. First, Brian, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast, really appreciate it. And now this is a podcast that is all about elevating your influence through purposeful negotiation. So, I'll kick it over to Aram, for some key takeaways from today's episode.
AD : Yeah. There's probably too many to list. Um, I, I really liked the idea around being able to build a picture for people into the future for, uh, for better or for worse, what that's gonna look like, uh, action and non action motivate behavior that way. I like the idea around, uh, authority. That's a combination of expertise and trustworthiness, uh, and we can, we can build both and make some choices there. I really liked what you shared too, um, about influences and opportunity.
And we should never be, um, less than fully prepared for that. So, uh, I think those are, um, those, those are just a few ideas I probably could keep going on, but I just wanna echo, uh, Nolan's words, Brian, and just say, thanks so much. I know, we know you're very busy, uh, and really appreciate you taking the time to be with us. This was really informative. I, I learned a ton and I know our listeners, uh, will enjoy this too.
BA : Thank you for having me on it. It's a pleasure. Like I said, I love talking about it, so I enjoyed the conversation.
NM : So, that is it for us on today's podcast. If you haven't already, please be sure to rate, review and subscribe to the Negotiate X podcast, do it wherever you listen to it. We greatly appreciate it. It helps put this podcast in front of other leaders, which is why Aaron and I continue to do this for you, the listener. Again, really appreciate you tuning in. Thank you so much. And I'll see you in the next episode.
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