Transcript

Nolan Martin : Hey everyone, thanks for joining us on the NEGOTIATEx podcast! We are continuing our conversation with Prof. Dr. Kasia Jagodzinska, negotiation author, professor, trainer, and advisor. If you haven't already checked out Part A of this show, be sure to do that first. Let's jump into the conversation with Kasia.

NM : And I kind of wanted to take what you had said previously now, cause it kind of got me thinking of how we tie back to the tension of randomness and perfectionism. We often hear of people spending tremendous amounts of time building out their career plans. Can you say more about the limitations of this approach? And do you see benefits of being more present in the moment, especially when it comes to negotiations?

Balancing Planning And Presence In Negotiation

Kasia Jagodzinska : I think so. I think there are huge advantages of being more present, especially now. I think a lot of people are realizing- I Just the other day, I read an interview of I will not quote who this person was, but it's a high-level a financial guru in many aspects, who was complaining that work from home should be disallowed or flexible work options should be disallowed. And the reasoning behind this was that people have regained their appetite for a work-life balance.

During the COVID period, they realized, you know, that they can, once again, busy professionals can once again go for a walk during the day, or they can see their kids or play with their animals, or whatever pleases them in the sense that puts them in a healthy mindset. And he was complaining about that, that people should, that appetite should be shortened in other words.

My opinion is a little bit different. My opinion is such that we are not, we were not present enough in many aspects. We are not present enough. The business arena requires of us very often multitasking. For me, “Multitasking is a Myth.” I believe it's not just a myth, but I think that it's a huge risk to our attention span. I believe that by multitasking, we are really diluting our attention in many ways,  in many different directions, which does not allow us to be present in the moment. How does that translate into negotiation? By not being, we never pay attention fully. We never fully listen to ourselves, to what our intuition is saying, what our reservoir of experiences is telling us. Also, in the unconscious, in the conscious, and the unconscious sphere of the psyche, we start listening basically.

We don't know what drives us in a negotiation. We don't understand very often what our needs are, what our motives are. And certainly, it becomes more difficult to understand the drivers of behavior of our negotiation partner because simply we are not paying attention because we have created the habit of being in many places at the same time, diluting that focus.

It's never singular. So also, you know, I've questioned quite a lot of over the lockdown period.

This time allowed me also in some ways to speed up but in many ways to slow down during the COVID period, like for many authors, for many experts who have focused on final rewriting books. Two of my three books have been written in the pandemic. Something that I've never had time for before the lockdowns because I was always traveling in all directions and simply lack of time and exhaustion didn't allow me to sit down and do that properly.

So, I've redefined also during that time some of my values in relation to negotiation. And because your question was whether randomness or whether we can plan to some extent, I think that we need to prepare for a negotiation. This is the fundamental, this is something that I will not criticize, the fact that 80% of the success of the negotiation is in proper preparation. However, I do think that some events in our life, for example, if recruiters ask the question, "Where do you see yourself in five years?” I think this is a very, how to put it, mildly idealistic question, assuming perfect conditions, imagine that in the lockdown. You ask someone, "What aren't they gonna do in a week from now?” You know, I think that showed us that life happens, and can happen, and takes over.

The more we try to suppress certain things, the more it's like the shadow in the psyche. I'm also in the course of training in Jungian psychoanalysis. So I'm fascinated by how the conscious and the unconscious will manifest and work together, how the ego works, and so on. And what we try to control too much or suppress some of the needs, some of the motives that drive us will eventually, eventually come out.

And it's a little bit like that's why I said a healthy, healthy balance between strategic planning and implementation, and design. But also a little bit, please, let's not forget that negotiation is a human interaction to some extent, it is governed by its own laws.

We can only plan as much; we should plan and we should do our research. We should gather our information. We should try to understand who is the other person with whom we're going to be negotiating, what would be some of the communication strategies that would resonate and work well with them.

But also, and I've seen this in court very often, that we can plan, but also life takes over, and the interaction and the two dynamics that meet will also create something new and something unknown. And that's part of preparation as well. The better prepared we are, the better we can manage the surprise elements in life and in negotiation as well.

NM : Absolutely. And I have to say that you were the most productive person in the pandemic that I know. So, [laughs], good job on the two books.

KJ : Thank you very much.

Aram Donigian : Yeah. So much you said there. So good and valuable. I love the piece about multitasking. I agree with you. Many people would find that controversial. What do you mean we can't multitask it? We're not good at it. And I like how you said, not only is it a myth, there's tremendous risk, right? That's powerful. Negotiation is a human interaction. Let me go to what you just said about preparation.

You said 80% of success is in preparation. Curious, we're curious about how you approach preparation and negotiation, and are there any common mistakes, missteps, or traps that you see people often make when they're preparing to negotiate.

The Importance of Negotiation Preparation

KJ : Yes. I think the biggest trap is that they assume that they know what to do. Okay. And that also relates to me that how difficult can it be. Or I'll figure out as we go along. I remember, I'm always trying to go back to the mistakes that I've made. And I've entered a lot of negotiations thinking, "Well, okay, I'll figure it out at the table.” That's too late. So the biggest mistake basically that you make is double the investment, doubling the investment of the time. Because it looks something like this. People go in unprepared, and I hear this very often from my clients, from the people whom I train or whom I have coaching sessions with. They say I'm a high-level executive. I do not have the time to prepare. If you do not have the time, then you are not; you don't have time basically to negotiate either because you'll enter, you will not have in the information that you need.

You will not have the understanding of the process, and you will not know what your mission is. You will not know what the goal is, what the objective of the negotiation is, and then you'll find eventually yourself to stabilize emotional stress, which will impact the rationality which will lead to decisions. It's like this saying, you know, that under the emotions or anger is you'll make the best speech that you will forever regret. So it's a little bit like this that you'll make a lot of decisions that you'll regret under emotions. And then, one or another, you will go back to the preparation.

Having taught yourself a lesson that can be costly, that I see for many of my clients, is quite costly to do that. And let's go back because I see that you're a little bit surprised that 80% of that is preparation of the negotiation success.

And I will explain the logic behind that. And the logic is that the preparation phase is, in my opinion, the only phase that you can really control in the negotiation. You can choose the time, you know; you can choose the space; you can choose the moment in which you are already and actually have the focus or the attention. Since we were talking about multitasking, to look at all the strategic aspects, look at how you can design the process, which tactics you're going to imply. What are your targets that you need to reach? What is the walk away? That is the only phase that is controllable because there is yet no interaction between the negotiation parties.

The moment that you encounter the other person is the moment that emotions start. You know, it's the moment of introduction. It's always, it always elevates the versus the cognitive, the effective element, which is the emotional aspect of the negotiation. So hence, I believe that this is the most important, and I confess, I've skipped it myself. And I can, based on my own experience, I've paid the price. So not recommended and definitely not.

AD : Learning from those mistakes again, you stole words that Nolan and I often use, which is preparation is the only aspect of the negotiation that I can absolutely control. When you get to the table in one of the books, you use this expression building an aura of desirability. What is that? Why is it important? How does one actually kind of go about creating the aura of desirability throughout the negotiation process or life cycle?

Building An Aura Of Desirability     

KJ : That's a great question because it frames a little bit. When we started the discussion off with options or lack thereof, that aura of desirability that I mentioned, I've noticed that with, first of all, with our family business, that miraculously at times when business was good, we always had more clients, more mandates, more clients, more requests, and so on.

When something was going wrong, the conditions were difficult. There was always lack of options. And the trick is, and this is something that my mother always used to tell me, that sometimes you have to pretend, you know, that's not a, I still am true to the fact that, you know, you have to believe in certain things before you externalize them. But I'm not a fan of this expression: Fake it till you make it.

AD : I'm not either.

KJ : No, because, first of all, it's not genuine. Okay. And I think we already established that I'm a firm believer in being genuine and convincing. First of all, who do you have to convince? You have to convince yourself that aura of desirability stems from this first experience that I mentioned to you, that when I accepted and I actually moved to Paris, and I was already a desired job candidate, and it didn't take a long time for other employers to start searching me out.

So, in other words, secure a good option or as many options as you can. So you see yourself as an item or an object. I see the CV as an object. I know it sounds a little bit harsh, perhaps, but as an object of desirability. But yet again, this takes us very nicely to what we were talking about earlier on, that stereotyping people, you know, female or gender or male or gender-oriented restrictions or labels can be, can limit the way that you see yourself as someone who is valuable, who brings value.

It starts with yourself. And I would say that's that aura of desirability starts with yourself. And very often when I'm down, you know, I have a difficult negotiation and there have been times in my life when either a relationship ended or I lost someone that I cared for. And I was grieving, for example, and I found myself emotionally destabilized. I didn't feel desirable. Those are not life events in which you particularly feel overflowing with positive emotions.

I always try to tell myself and think about things that would label myself in my own eyes and define myself as someone who has value very often. And this is actually one of the techniques that works internally but also externally. People ask me very often, "How Do I stay motivated?" I work a lot. They say I do executive sessions, MBA sessions, I work with clients, with students.

I advise the United Nations, as you said, I've been quite productive in the COVID period. And people ask me, "How do I stay motivated it? For example, I have five trainings in a row in a week, and this is where I try to think about the desirability aspect, the aura of desirability of those other people on the other side of the table. And I think to myself, I try to ask myself, "What do I value these people for? And there's always a reason. So when I look at my students, I think of the fact that they're studying, they're working full-time jobs.

A lot of them have family obligations, financial obligations that they need to fulfill. And they're still committing, for example, to getting an executive MBA. And that is something that I enormously respect, and that for me, in my eyes, they have an aura of desirability.

NM : Yeah, trust is important to almost every negotiation, certainly must have been critical to some of the multi-stakeholder engagement work that you've done with the you. And what do you see as critical steps to both building trust and establish yourself as a trusted advisor or partner?

Building Trust in Negotiation: Critical Steps

KJ : First of all, building trust, that's, I was very surprised that at the United Nations, the majority of the mandates revolved around workshops and trainings on how to build trust against, not against but among the participants, the stakeholders. And I find that there's no other recipe, really, if you think about it logically.

There's no magic formula other than working together and passing through certain phases, certain hardships. And most importantly, that links us and brings us to the second part of the question. How do you become a trusted partner? How do you become a trusted advisor, a trusted negotiator? First of all, don't manipulate. That would be my recommendation. Because a lot of times, students, young students, professionals, not so much, but young students, you know, the ones that are still, as I mentioned, the wild ones and the young ones, they always want to know.

Teachers manipulation. I refuse to do so, not because particularly of ethical standards, not alone at least, but also because, in my opinion, you become what you do. So, if you manipulate very often, and that can also be linked to what we talked about, multi-tasking. You know, if you always multitask and you never listen, but only on the job, you know, only at work, there's no such thing.

Because if you do that consistently in one environment, it will transplant to different spheres of your life as well. And now I'm talking both about manipulation or being untrustworthy or unethical behaviors or even multitasking, and so on. So I would say do not manipulate; sometimes it's better. No deal, in my opinion, in my eyes, is better than a short-lived imposed agreement in which you jeopardize perhaps your personal values or you acted to the detriment of the other person.

The second would be walk the talk, do what she's saying. So, very often I hear negotiations, negotiators threaten, in their negotiations and they never execute the threat. I'm not saying that you should threaten, because again, I don't think it's the most optimal nor effective approach in negotiations, but they show themselves as not credible because they threaten on one hand, but the behavior doesn't follow. So, very often, other parties try to sit down at a table with me and say, "Okay, this is our last offer; this is a take it or leave it.” If you don't give us this, then we're out the door. And then several hours later or several meetings later, they're still there.

AD : Right.

KJ : So, you know, [laughs], so I know in a way who am I dealing with and how far also I can go.

AD : Yeah, it gets back, it feels like it gets back to being genuine, right? Which has been your common theme. And as you talk about kind of the significant drawbacks to manipulating or threatening or not following through in behavior. It just reminded me, I'd heard recently that when we practice behaviors like that, something like 55% of the time that will get some sort of equal response versus when we kind of practice from a place of genuineness, right? Those difficult behaviors are it drops to 16% that we're gonna get those kind of in response.

Negotiating With Authenticity And Presence

KJ : Yes. Yes. I think so. Definitely, from my experience, power always feels counter-powered. Pressure yields counterpressure. That's why I'm very often I say don't try to be too strategic. I'm not talking about the fact that you know, this is not randomness. I'm not talking be completely random, going unprepared to see how it goes, sit in a lotus position, and manifest good things. I don't think this is enough. I think you should, on one hand, strategically design the process, but also think about what would you like, in which way would you like to be treated. On what level would you like to be treated? And I think we often forget about that too often that we are dealing with a human, we become too much strategic, too much unrest, and we forget about the basic primal reactions, the basic primal instincts that govern human behavior, because we try to be too strategic.

And in dealing, in negotiations, both parties are very much alert to those strategies to those tactics. I mean, I think as a society in general, we are pretty much brainwashed, with a lot of strategies with, you know, with, these empty mottos that we hear from all sides. I think pretty much we're fed up, a lot of people are fed up with quick-fix solution, negotiation nuggets, you know, principles and so on.

I think it's time also to think about a little bit more about simply some of the basic concept psychological and understand a little bit on how persuasion works, how people communicate, and also display genuine concern and genuine interest in others, apart from ourselves. Only in one of my books, I mentioned something that I call the selfie generation; you know, that you see these people running around it used to be selfie sticks.

Now, it's basically you don't even need a selfie stick. You are never in the moment. You know, a lot of people ask me, send me pictures when I go somewhere, an interesting place or a show. I never do this. First of all, I'm very critical here of, you know, how that picture will look like. Very often, but also, you know, it's my privacy. Which I very, very much value my privacy, my personal sphere, and so on.

But also simply, and the most important,  perhaps is that I want to be present in the moment, not through a lens, not through what other people, how many legs there will be, and so on. I think we're too oriented on, you know, how do we come across without being present also in the moment and just stopping what we said a moment ago.

And the same goes for a negotiation. That we feel we have to put on a game, a show, a mask. And I do realize that when stakes are high, emotions are high, and there's a lot to lose. And I always say negotiation is not a confession, and you have to be realistic. No one is going to confess their bottom line, their walkaway position. You should not even be asking because either you're forcing that person to lie or you're going to accept that the answer that you're going to get is not necessarily the real one. But, I think a little bit more present and a little more, not fake it till you make it. Exactly not just the opposite of it: action.

AD : So, Kasia, in your book you discuss this idea that negotiations often become Ego-tiations. I had never heard it framed that way before. Why is that such an important observation to you?

The Role of the Ego in Negotiation

Mm-hmm. This question relates, and this concept of negotiation relates to what we were talking about a little bit earlier on about two energies or two aspects of a negotiation that are always present. You have the strategic one, you have the external manifestation of certain needs and certain interests of the parties that are involved in the negotiation itself, but more importantly, also you have the internal factors and the personalities and the two people that negotiate with each other.

According to the Swiss psychologist Carl Gustav Jung, we have the element of the self and the ego in the side key. These two elements separate from each other because we very often colloquially say, "Oh, the ego is taking over.” What does that mean in my experience when not only emotions, but when you have the feeling that there is a force, I don't want to make it sound too metaphysical, but there is a force or an element that you're not understanding in the behavior of your negotiation partner or even in your own behavior.

That's very often when the ego has been activated. So, the ego can be a reflection of something that has not been satisfied in relation to your needs, in relation to your interest, or that's something is perceived as a threat to your well-being, to your also resources and resources, I mean, not only the financial ones but also the resources in the sense of goodwill or your position in a negotiation, or the way that you see yourself or your role in the negotiation.

So, in other words, whenever you get, and very often I see this when you get unwrapped more than just in the strategic aspect and the, and the content of the process itself, in my opinion, this is a glimpse of the ego taking over very often when you stay in the negotiation.

And I ask a lot of my clients, you know, we're already close to the walkaway position, and the answer is, “I'm not leaving the table." Very often, I hear that that's when you know that the ego is speaking because, financially, it no longer makes sense, but they still want to go. And it's like a little bit in a casino. I'm not saying that the egos take over in a casino because I don't think that's that for some people, it's an addiction, it's a problem as well. But you can see that it doesn't make any more financial sense, but those people get glued to the table, and it's very often the same in a negotiation. And that's the reflection of the ego taking over, or the manifestation of the ego taking over.

AD : Great explanation for that. Thank you.

KJ : Thank you.

NM : We hear so many professional negotiators talk about the importance of listening. You talk about how listening is a sophisticated two-dimensional process. What do you mean by that? And how can our listeners become more effective listeners?

Understanding The Importance Of Listening Skills In Negotiations

KJ : I think that the most important aspect that we need to remember and take into consideration is that it's a two-way street. That communication is a two-way street. It's an exchange of a reflection of emotions, sentiments, feelings, needs, and so on that are verbalized or externalized to the other party. However, the fact that you are a speaker, for example, it's easy for me to understand this because one might think that as a professor or a trainer or a speaker, I'm engaged mostly in speaking, it's not true. I see my role as dual. I assess the impact that I have that my words have on the audience. I look at the feedback, I look at the signals in the negotiation. We call this the signal of the willingness to cooperate, for example, or signals of lack of willingness or closure to cooperation. You have to be sensitive to that.

And we often say that a good negotiator speaks less than they listen to understand more about themselves, also about the impact that they have, their presence. And here we, this takes us, we could have a discussion on emotional intelligence as well, spiritual intelligence and so on. All these aspects that we are starting to talk about however, it's more a skilled negotiator relies more on the refined skill of being able to pay attention. And that takes us back to the multitasking, that if you're never listening, if you're in the habit of not listening on the job and the job takes up 80% of your life, then that 20% of that will also suffer. So that two-way street is the interaction between the one who sees themselves as the speaker, but really is also the receiver and the recipient of the message that they convey.

AD : Kasia, you created this negotiation booster approach. There are a lot of negotiation approaches out there for people to use. How does your methodology differ from those of others you might see?

Combining Psychology and Strategy for Successful Negotiations

KJ : First of all, fundamentally, the underlying idea behind the negotiation booster was that tools, strategies, tactics, you know, they're great. And as I said, on one hand, you have to know how to manage. You have to have a framework, and you have to have a toolkit to enhance your confidence. But very often I notice working with my clients that that's not enough. That even if you give them the toolkit, they will lack belief that they can actually apply it, that they can be successful, that they can create an aura of desirability around what they have to offer, their services, their product, and so on.

And I found that without this empowerment aspect, without people understanding the fundamentals of how the psyche works, what are some of the triggering factors that can bring the ego or allow the ego to take over the discussion and the dynamic, how to manage stress, how to mention the simple mental processes that can severely impact your negotiation power.

Without that teaching only the strategies and the tactics, it cannot fully benefit from the full potential of a training package. Hence, I started broadening my skills. So I have the legal background, I have the managerial experience, I have international exposure, and I found that an element was missing. And that element was the understanding of the psychological concepts.

Hence, I started elevating my skills in analytical psychology, and now I combine, and this is something that I share with my clients, both aspects, the psychological empowerment and the package of a strategic design of the negotiation process.

AD : Thank you.

NM : Thank you so much for sharing that. Are there any final thoughts for our listeners on how they can continue to improve their negotiation influence skills?

Learning How To Enter A Negotiation With A Mission

KJ : Yes. One final thought I would say, because we've spoken a lot about the negotiation booster we've spoken a lot about the other learnings from the "Negotiate your Way to Success" book. I would like to conclude the discussion also with a small reference to wrap up a book. The third book that I've just released in two 2023, The Financial Times Guide to High Impact Negotiation, that grasps a lot of these things that we've covered in our exchange today, but also allows this, the methodology that I present in this third book allows you to understand the psychological factors but also the design of the process.

So, what is your mission? Those would be my final thoughts. Enter a negotiation with a mission. And this is something that I start the book with, apart from the premise that the first negotiator that you have to convince is yourself, start with a mission. We very often admit that in a negotiation landscape, then go to the goal, which is very often a broad goal. What do you want? And then be very specific about your objective, what do you want it for?

And I think that as a closing remark, very nicely grasps what we were talking about, the planning aspect and the strategic planning, but also the elements that we called a certain randomness, a certain free flow, or even freestyle going with the flow. And also when we were talking about knowing the ego element and steering away from the Ego- tiation dynamic, knowing what you are in the negotiation for and keeping your eyes on the price. That would be my final remarks.

NM : Awesome. Thank you so much. And thank you so much for joining us. I'll pass it over to Aram for closing comments.

AD : Yeah, Kasia, thank you. With everything you're doing, I don't know how you have the time to make, to put us on your schedule. You did. We're very grateful for that, for your insights. Thank you. Thanks.

KJ : Thank you.

AD : I'll just say that last piece that you ended with, the first negotiator that you must convince is yourself is powerful. I think it gets to mindset; it gets to genuineness. It gets to not being satisfied with simple compromise. And it gets to what you said at the very beginning about learning from our mistakes, which are our gold mind. So thanks for that. And thanks for your time.

KJ : Thank you so much.

NM : And that's it for us on today's podcast. If you haven't already, please rate, review, and subscribe, and we'll see you in the next episode. Hey everyone, Nolan here. I wanted to put a quick plugin for Kaisa's new book, The Financial Times Guide to High Impact Negotiation. This book is available at all major distributors, so be sure to get your copy now.